Speaker 1 00:00:08 What's up, everyone. Welcome to the finance for physicians podcast. I'm your host, Daniel Raimi. Join me as we dig into what it looks like for physicians to begin using their finances as a tool to live better lives. You can learn more about our
[email protected] let's. Jump into today's episode Donovan. What's up, man. I'm excited to have you again on this podcast, Daniel. My
Speaker 2 00:00:30 Pleasure. Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 00:00:33 Yeah, so Donna and I were just talking, um, we, we had lots of conversations, um, about varying things, but today we're excited to talk about financial independence and there's a lot of, it's a hot topic. There's a lot of stuff out there. Um, in in fact, one particular article was what prompted this discussion along the lines of financial independence is kind of like the end all be all like the key to living the good life. The pursuit of financial independence is, can be great. And on the surface sounds fantastic. But really what we wanted to talk about is, you know, balancing that with ultimately living a good life. And so, um, I guess maybe to get started, let's back up a few steps. So, um, maybe Donovan, you can kind of take this, take a stab at this one. Let's talk about like, what is financial independence or so we make sure we're all on the same page here.
Speaker 2 00:01:29 Uh, Daniel, as you're mentioning financial independence certainly is a topic of incredible importance. And anyone that's listening to this podcast is likely to read their fair share of articles on the blogosphere about how financial independence can help them and even promoting financial independence as a key factor in, uh, maybe reducing burnout or other things I think that we could agree on. And if we're defining terms here, uh, financial independence is a situation in which, uh, you have assets, whether they're income producing assets or appreciated assets that you're selling, translating that into income. So you, you have assets that are creating income for you that provide a situation to where you no longer have to go to work in order to make ends meet. Um, would you agree? That's a fair definition of financial independence as kind of a baseline?
Speaker 1 00:02:27 Yeah, I think the key is you don't have to earn any more money for the rest of your life. Like you are completely set financially just based off your pot of money that you have no, there's zero need to work. You might choose to work. That's the thing about, that's why I like that term is sure, because a lot of people, if you're 40 years old and you become, you know, you get to where you're financially independent at 40, that just means you don't have to work now, but you could still continue working if you chose to. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:02:58 And this is the appeal
Speaker 1 00:02:59 Of financial independence is the idea that there's a tremendous amount of freedom. Um, and I think this is, this is really attractive to, uh, individuals who may be in a job that they're not particularly enjoying right now. And so the idea of becoming financially independent as a means of being able to step away from that current employer and just say, Hey, I'm outta here is something that's very nice, very sharp. And it's, it's, it's, it's pretty easy right off the bat to see, uh, that there, there are tremendous benefits to achieving financial independence, but as you alluded to at the beginning of the, of, uh, our introduction here, um, there probably are some other considerations that people should be thinking about as they pursue financial independence. This is not a podcast about not achieving financial independence today. Uh, that's something we're all going for, but it probably is an opportunity to step back and, and make sure we're being reflective and thoughtful about the way that we're going about to achieve that.
Speaker 1 00:04:07 Yeah, it's the pursuit we want. We want to talk about the pursuit of financial independence today, because I think that's where it can get, it's a little bit of a slippery slope. Like Donovan said, we're all at the end of the day, we're all kind of seeking that out to some extent, but, uh, I think the important part we're going to talk through today is like, how are you going about it? Uh, what does that look like for you? And I think in medicine, um, I, I would have heard this a lot from our clients is that it seems like especially right now, you know, with COVID and it's just the pressures at work, it seems like this has become even more of an appealing, you're a desirable place to be of late. It seems like. Has that been your experience Donovan in
Speaker 2 00:04:50 Terms of achieving like financial dependents sooner rather than later?
Speaker 1 00:04:53 Yeah. It's like a man, this, this job is especially stressful right now with COVID and then, um, just, you know, burning out.
Speaker 2 00:05:00 Yeah. Oh, without a doubt. I think a lot of physicians are experiencing that and we just take a moment here and say, Hey, thank you for the good work you're doing because, uh, the last year and a half has not been easy, uh, for doctors. And I think we can have some, some space for grace there and say, Hey, like, you know, it's recognizable. It's been probably very tough life may not be in the, in, in balance right now for many of you. And so we can, we can take all of that and say, Hey, yeah, there's, there's a chance to, to be respectful of that and provide some, some grace there. Um, and be understanding too of the fact that there is a market for the type of literature that says, Hey, here's how financial planning or rather financial independence, uh, is, is going to solve those problems. Right. There's an appetite for that.
Speaker 1 00:05:49 Right? Yeah. And I could see it. It makes sense. Um, and so w what's interesting though, in, in, in, for physicians, it is, that's, it's a little bit of a paradox. It's like, you train so hard, put in so much time and then go into practice and it's like, let's see how fast we can get to a point where we don't have to work. Um, that doesn't, it's not necessarily a bad thing. Like financial independence, I think is a good thing, but I just find it. Um, I think, I think we maybe could spend a little bit of time talking about that is there's this, you know, extended training and so much time and effort put into the profession. And then this, you know, some, some of those in the profession choose this aggressive route of financial independence, um, and maybe even choose to kind of pull the plug on the profession, uh, as fast as possible.
Speaker 1 00:06:42 So that's fire, you know, they actually become financial independent and they retire early. And so I find that really interesting. I see why it's happening. I see the pressures, or I hear it from our clients. And I see we have lots of clients aggressively working to, you know, build their wealth so that they can get out of medicine. That's not all, all of them, but there's definitely a pretty decent amount of physicians, really working hard to get out of medicine and it's not, and it happens a lot of time or soon after they finished training. I just, I just find that so fascinating. I don't totally understand what's going on there, but what are your thoughts on that Donovan?
Speaker 2 00:07:20 Yeah, it's, I mean, it's, it's worthy, uh, I think to poke at this a little bit and I, I also am I, you know, wind to vocalize the fact to, you know, here we have two financial advisors we're kind of on the outside of, uh, you know, we serve physicians predominantly in both of our practices. And so it, you know, we do have an outside perspective looking into medicine, and I know sometimes we may not grasp everything that they're going through, but it still is worthy. I think, to, to, to think about what you're laying out, because it does, it does strike me as interesting too. I think that, uh, you know, most of the doctors that we encounter, I suspect would provide a rationale for going into medicine, something along the lines of a desire to go out and help people. Yeah. If you're going to do the labor of healing and care and providing for people and some of their darkest hours and some of their happiest hours too, right.
Speaker 2 00:08:23 There's a really great things that happen in medicine too. You know, there's, there's, there's really this desire to care and to serve. And then you go, you complete your undergraduate training. You go through a rigorous process to apply to medical schools, you know, examinations and the life to be able to get there. And then you spend four years in medical school. So here's already eight years of education. I just to be able to start practicing. And then of course, there's a period of residency which often takes another three or four years. And depending on your specialty, we could add some more years onto that. And so we're really looking at like a minimum of 11 or so years of education and training, just to be able to go out and do your work of course, at an attending salary. So there's a very, there's a very high financial reward, but it does appear that there is a shifting away at some point.
Speaker 2 00:09:22 And maybe it's just because residency, so grinding meadow, medical school, so grinding, but I think it's possible that physicians may start to lose sight of those original reasons why they'd go into medicine. And, and again, maybe that's because it's getting beaten out of them along the way, some degree. And so what you were mentioning earlier is there's this motivation to escape and this idea like financial independence is going to allow me to go do what I really want to do, which isn't actually practicing medicine and what you're, what you're describing as, Hey, this is, this is a bit surprising because look at all that time and energy and money that went into you, being able to practice this. And then it's the shift seems to be, how fast can I get out? And I really feel like that is, that is something to really put a lot of, of a lot of thought into, if you're a physician listening to this and you find yourself in that situation, as I could imagine myself being in, if I went through everything that you did, I think it would be, I think it would be prudent to step back and consider is financial independence on a short track path.
Speaker 2 00:10:38 And I know we're going to talk about, you know, the fire movement here in a little bit, but is a short track path to financial independence going to solve that problem, or is it possible that that short track path to financial independence actually exacerbates it a little bit? And I think that is a very real concern that we need to be, we need to be careful about as, as we're, we're thinking about what financial independence gives us and what it doesn't, especially in a timeframe that maybe rather expedite,
Speaker 1 00:11:11 Right. And that that's a perfect point. Is, is it, is it going to solve the issue I recently spoke with, um, my friends, Ryan and Katie brown, they, their, um, primary care. And they started out, um, you know, probably one or two years into practice and we're big time feeling the pressure and, um, kind of we're looking for ways out. Um, it was just a, it was not what they expected and for them and their situation everybody's different, but in their situation, what they found was, uh, alternative career tracks. So they went into, they started their own concierge medical practice, and that really kind of solved a lot of their issues. And you guys can listen to that podcast episode with Ryan and Katie brown. Why pointed that out is that was kind of the ideal solution to their issue of, um, I guess bordering on burnout, um, in, in their, uh, profession pretty early on into it, but they were kind of in that, uh, early on, they were kind of in that exploratory phase.
Speaker 1 00:12:19 They're like, we're not sure what the solution is. They did a great job of like, like what you just said, taking a minute, like kind of taking a time out and saying, okay, what does a good life look like for us? Or like, what are we really, after here they went to therapists, they talked to counselors, they got a lot of like, you know, good kind of quiet time, essentially like thinking time. And I think that's partly why they, they were able to make that good decision. But I think that's where it's at. Is, is this getting you where you ultimately want to go in life?
Speaker 2 00:12:52 Yeah. I completely agree. Four on a few points that you make in sharing that, um, the first is that the, the right solution may be a change in your current employment situation. It's totally possible that you are working in a toxic work environment. Um, the team that you're on is not the right team for you. Uh, the culture is not a good fit. And so from that standpoint, yeah, it makes it, it might be totally appropriate to find a different job or even a different way of doing medicine as, as your friends, um, are currently doing. I think one of the, um, one of the things that I've given some thought to, as it relates to financial independence, because, you know, we've defined financial independence as, Hey, you ha you have enough assets built up to where you no longer have to work anymore for the rest of your life.
Speaker 2 00:13:47 And depending on when you retired, that could be a long, long time. In particular, if, uh, individuals have, you know, they're being ambitious and they want to retire in their early forties and, you know, not have to earn a, not to go to work anymore, earn a living well, you could be in a quote unquote, retired state for more than half your life, which is a really long time for assets to be producing income. And, uh, you know, if I think about, if I think about a, a, a new physician, you know, she just completed her residency. Uh, you know, she probably has somewhere around $200,000 in student loan debt. She's really concerned about that. She needs to figure that out. Um, but she's also, you know, maybe in her early thirties and she's needing to not only pay off the student loans, um, or make sure that she meets forgiveness or whatever it might be, but she also needs to get started saving for retirement.
Speaker 2 00:14:41 She probably wants to buy a home. Maybe she's getting married or is married. Maybe there's a kid or two there where there's a family that wants to come. And so you have all of these competing things, uh, and this, this incredible crunch of time and energy and everything that needs to happen within a relatively short period of time. And if we think about like what it takes to become financially independent, you're really putting a tremendous amount of pressure on yourself. If your net worth is negative $200,000, because you've got a student loan burden and you and I have seen bounce as much higher than that, too. Um, but you know, not only are you trying to pay that off safer time and complete all the other goals, both financially and life goals, the concern that I have with in particular, the fire movement, financial independence retire early is that you are self imposing a whole lot of pressure to do all of these things in an extraordinarily short period of time.
Speaker 2 00:15:42 And, you know, if we just think about, you know, saving, what does it take to actually become financially independent? And if we just use it, let's just use a nice round number of a million bucks, right? I mean, we could have conversations with different people where a million dollars is enough. And for some others, you know, a million dollars is not enough for, for what they want to do, but it's helpful to have that nice figure. Right? Many of our listeners are probably familiar with, you know, the 4% rule. You know, it's not really a rule, maybe, maybe even a guideline. I don't even know about that, but you know, some of the, some of the financial literature has suggested that, uh, it's possible to successfully retire while taking about 4% of your portfolio year over year. And again, you know, we're, we're not going into the details of the study about how long, blah, blah, blah.
Speaker 2 00:16:29 We're just talking about a general rule of thumb, right. You know, on a million dollar portfolio, we're talking about $40,000 based on the 4% rule. And it seems like there's a lot of very intelligent people are saying, Hey, 4% seems a little bit high. Like maybe it's really 3.5 or maybe three from where you and I are seeing today. We have no idea what it will be. Maybe it's a 6% rule it'll depend on. Yeah. Oh, well, yeah. Six year time horizon. Yeah. I mean, you would, you would want to lean conservative, right. And so, you know, maybe you're looking, if you saved up a million bucks, maybe you're looking at 30,000, $35,000 annual income. And then, you know, you got, if you're not working somewhere, you got to add in the cost of health insurance and everything else. And so all of a sudden that young 30 year old resident, if we can go back to back to her, she's now trying to save up a million bucks in the next 10 years.
Speaker 2 00:17:25 And one of the difficulties in doing that is that compounding interest isn't really going to be on her side. She only has 10 years. Um, you know, if she needs to save again, maybe a million bucks, isn't the right number, but whatever the number is your ability to save that figure, insert a million dollars, insert 2 billion, really to save up to that amount is becomes a much more manageable as the time horizon increases. Um, but if you shorten that time, rise in your mind just doesn't have enough time to compound. And so, you know, I ran the numbers a little bit earlier, so I'm not gonna be exactly what I've taught my head, but you know, if you have 30 years to get to a million dollars, you need to save about $10,000 a year, somewhere, somewhere around that. If you're looking to do it in 10 years, you save a little bit more than $70,000 per year.
Speaker 2 00:18:21 And it's on top of all the other things that you got going on now, you're also saving $70,000 per year to get to that target. And, and again, this isn't necessarily, you know, I understand maybe the way I'm talking right now really seems like I'm really, really kind of jabbing at financial independence. Not at all. I'm just questioning whether, uh, achieving financial independence in that timeframe really is gonna make you that much happier. Or if there's a different way to look at it, like you were talking about with your friends, or maybe the solution is to find a job that you really enjoy for a long time and have some other thoughts on that. But I'm curious to get your feedback on that day.
Speaker 1 00:19:02 Yeah. I think first of all, everybody, most, most people listening, really. I think anybody, um, if they really want this, like if they are passionate about it and really want this kind of thing, you can get it like, and you can do it in a short period of time and you can knock it out of the park. Yep. Agreed. Especially in medicine, I mean, you have such solid earning potential, so it's totally attainable, but we're kind of talking about is that the best route for you? And it is for some people, but kind of questioning, is it the best route for you? Because the challenge with it, especially if you're looking at a short period of time is at the end of the day, what do you, what does that dollar amount, like if you have to save a hundred thousand dollars a year to, you know, get on track for financial independence, what is the cost of that?
Speaker 1 00:19:51 So I think that's the flip side is what is the cost of that? And I think in my mind when I view this from the outside is, um, it's the first thing that comes to mind is the dollars themselves. So you could spend them as maybe what you're thinking, but what I would propose is the time, like, I think the time is the most important aspect of all of this. And it's also the most overlooked aspect of all of this is in medicine. Most of the time it's, um, you know, hours for dollars. And so, you know, you, the more you push the gas on the financial independence, that's gonna require more hours. I mean, you can be more productive than hours you have there. I'm not going to, I'm not saying this is the only lever you can pull, but at the end of the day, there's only so much you can cram into hours and it's, it's gonna require at some point more time to get, or it's going to be you're, you're trading dollars for time.
Speaker 1 00:20:47 And so the question is, you know, do you have the time first of all, to do this? And because we work with some people that have plenty of spare time and they have plenty of income, like very high income and they're working, you know, a modest amount of hours. And I think they can kind of do this really aggressively while still balancing in all the other important stuff in their life. But I guess the first question I would, I would propose is like talking about like, what's most important. So Donovan wrote an article about living a rich life. I'll link to this in the show notes, but it was a great article about like really honing in on, you know, what's your purpose and values and goals. And, and, and are you living a rich life? And when I w really actually what prompted this conversation was a combination of the financial independence article I was referring to earlier.
Speaker 1 00:21:44 And then thinking about Donovan's article about living a rich life. And I'm thinking in a lot of cases, I could see there being like a, a conflict there, like where the pursuit of financial independence is actually causing you potentially to not live a good life or a rich life right now. Like what, so maybe Donovan, you can talk about that article. Cause I really want to, I think that's probably a good, like baseline to set is like, cause I don't know, most people it's rare. I don't know if anybody's not after a rich life. Right. Like that's what we all want is we want to live a rich life and that's, that's where it's at. So maybe you can share kind of some of the points from that.
Speaker 2 00:22:24 Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, who was you ask that said, Hey, you know, what's what would make your life really rich? I mean, who wouldn't say spending time with those that I love, uh, enjoying some personal hobbies, uh, having, having deep relationships with family and friends, having meaningful experiences going on adventures. Yeah. I mean, I think, I think most people would say that it seems though that along the way, we kind of lose track of those things because there's a lot of, there's a lot of license kind of busy work and, and going back to what you were talking about earlier, there are sacrifices that need to be made from time to time. And I think that we get into a habit of, short-term what we view as a short term sacrifice, oh, Hey, I need to do this on this, spend a little bit less time with my family, you know, or, you know, I have to choose between this work thing and this activity for my child.
Speaker 2 00:23:28 And I just gotta do the work thing. And I'm not saying that there's never a place for that, but I think that, uh, if we're not careful, we look back on life and we realize that we, we chose all the wrong things or we just chose too many of the wrong things along the way. You know, I wrote that article on living a rich life for a few reasons. One of them is because I am often concerned, concerned that I'm not living a rich life. And so I didn't write it from the perspective like, Hey, I'm an expert on, you know, I'm the, I'm a, uh, living life, richly consultant, you know, come hire me and I'll teach that's right. Everyone looked to me, I've done it. Right? No, not at all. You know, one of the reason why I rose because I am, I'm concerned about the way that I make decisions.
Speaker 2 00:24:17 And so I think about this and, um, another reason why, of course, the whole introduction to the article is that my grandfather passed away and he lived beyond a hundred years old, which is cool, you know, made 200. And, uh, he was successful in a lot of things, um, including financially. But, uh, I don't view that from my perspective as his grandson, as being like the most important thing that he cared about. I mean, he translated values of, of loving and certainly have a strong work ethic work hard, but you know, caring for your family, providing for your family, spending time with your family, being respectful to your mom. I mean, these are things that like grandpa really, really honed in and, you know, at his passing, I just thought, you know, if I'm thinking about grandpa, I'm not, I'm not remembering him because he was financially well off and I'm remembering him because he was a great grandpa.
Speaker 2 00:25:19 And I, you know, that's, that's kind of what led into things. I, I had a few ideas in our article for how people can move, maybe move in that direction. And, and, uh, there are absolutely financial things to be taken care of. Those things need to be taken care of. Um, but one of the ideas that I pause it in the article is you really should establish a vision for your life. And in my experience, I don't think very many people have really written out. This is what I want my life to be like. And it's really powerful what writing out a vision document can do and, and how it can direct your life. So maybe, you know, maybe I'll take a moment, just talk a little bit about my experience in crafting a vision document and, and how that might be something that people can lift right from this podcast and just go and do on their own too.
Speaker 2 00:26:16 So, you know, when I, I was working for another financial planning firm a number of years ago, and I resigned from that firm to start my own firm. And at the time it was one of those turning point opportunities. And I sat down and I started writing down some things that were important to me, some things to like guide my life by. And I just titled it. And vision is a Google doc opened up a Google doc towel that vision. And I did not spend a ton of time in one sitting just like trying to figure out what do I really care about, to be honest with you. Like, I don't think knowing what you want out of life is something that you can sit down for like an hour and just how to figure it out. But I ideas would come and whenever those ideas came, I made sure they got included in the document.
Speaker 2 00:27:02 So how I usually did it was I sent an email to myself on my phone. So that was my reminder, Hey, here's an idea that I had. And then I transferred from there to the vision document. And, you know, some things that came out of that were things like, and again, anyone listening to spell your dog and be like, wow, that's like the biggest thing ever, but they've impacted my life. Things like, uh, you know, make sure you take your wife on a date every week. How about waiting at the bus stop with the kids in the morning, be careful about your pace of life. You know, don't move faster than you should be, or then is needful make mindfulness a part of your daily routine consider going to sleep at this time and getting up at this time. So I'm putting everything in that and included in that are also professional things.
Speaker 2 00:27:47 Um, like, you know, by this date, grow the business by this amount, uh, look out for these other opportunities. And so by doing that, I've created something to kind of measure my life by. And so there's a, there there's a bit of direction there and adding on death. So if you're on board with the idea that like, okay, I see how the vision document could be useful. The next important thing is to make sure that you're looking at it, uh, because gosh man, like, well, life is super, super busy. You know, you're, you're gonna get in a fight with your spouse. You're gonna have a kid who's not being very, uh, kind in the way that they're treating their siblings. Um, or maybe you have some hard times at work or whatever, and you're going to need to recenter yourself. And so an easy way to do that is to put a little reminder on your calendar.
Speaker 2 00:28:43 That's what I've done. I've a reminder every Friday, uh, before work is over opening up that document and I'm reading it and it's not always a good read. Like I'm not always spending like reading every single word, but I'm looking at it maybe to skim. Maybe I'm reading the most important part of it for you at that time, and then going on my way. But this, this can be, this can be a great way for physicians, uh, in particularly young ones that are coming out of training and they're, they're wanting to figure things out to get on the right foot, by having a document like that, where you lay out what you want your life to be like, that's going to be huge. I mean, the financial stuff is going to come. The income potential is huge for physicians. So the financial stuff is going to come. You know, you, you put together a good plan and you work that system, that's going to come, but along the way, you know, being able to make sure that you're developing deep relationships with people, you about, you're taking time for yourself, you're doing activities that nourish you, not just the ones that deplete you and building that over time, I think could be life-changing over a long time.
Speaker 1 00:29:53 Yeah. And that's, it's interesting that, um, you know, we're talking about money and financial independence at the end of the day, though, this is far more important than, um, financial independence. Like you were talking about with your grandfather. You think about people, um, you know, you, I'm sure you, all of you all have heard this, like people on their death bed. Don't talk about like, man, I wish I had, um, you know, wish I'd worked more hours or they're, they're usually, uh, thinking about the relationships and the other people in their lives. I think we're Donovan where you're going a different path than, than a lot of people is you have awareness or you're focused on awareness of this. This is one of those things that can easily get lost in the shuffle of life. Everything's busy. It seems like every, you know, everything's sped up.
Speaker 1 00:30:38 And so something like vision for the future, or what's most important, your values, that kind of thing is easy to fall through the cracks. And you're doing a good job of reminding yourself to be aware of it and kind of adjusted over time. Cause it is like an evolving thing. Um, for me, mine has a halls, uh, considerably over the years, I've done them from many years back and it's interesting to look at them. You know, like 10 years ago was probably the first ones I did or maybe more than that 15 years ago. And if you look at those from way back then, they're just totally, some of the things are, you know, did play out, but, but, uh, others were completely different. But I think the things that have stayed on there are like, you know, family is important, balanced life, healthy, being healthy in life.
Speaker 1 00:31:31 And right now in particular to the things that I would say are on kinda like on my list are having that refocusing on that balance is the number one. And then number two, loving others, like working on like being more intentional about loving others, like the people closest to me, especially. And so those are the, so those are like my, you know, non-negotiables like, that's so if I have a big decision, you know, I'm going to kinda go back to those and say, is this moving me towards or away from that? And so going back to financial independence, the challenge with the pursuit of financial independence is in some way, in, in a lot of cases, it can pull me cause I'm after this, just like everybody, that whole, so my two things healthy balance. So healthy balance is basically like not working all the time for me, it's like spending time to be healthy, you know, myself and then also healthy within my relationships and mental health and all that.
Speaker 1 00:32:30 The other health is number one and then number two is loving others. So those two things are, are definitely in direct conflict of financial independence at the end of the day. So yeah, my sole focus is on financial independence. I'm going to work all the time. That's going to be, you know, and, and, and the more I focus on it, the more I'm going to work because that's my money-making machine, that's my gasoline to gain towards financial independence. So what you know Donald well, what are your thoughts on that, that pursuit of financial independence and how do you mesh it with this whole? Uh, because I don't think, I wonder if people, maybe I would say it's rare that if you really take the time to go through something like this exercise, like you're talking about like think through your vision and values, that being financial independent is on the list
Speaker 2 00:33:22 In terms of like, Hey, is that going to appear on the vision document somewhere?
Speaker 1 00:33:26 Is that the most important thing in your life?
Speaker 2 00:33:28 Yeah, no, I, I, I think as we've kind of hinted that a few times in our conversation, there's probably a whole lot of other things that are gonna show up on my K what's important. What do I value? What's gonna make my life rich before financial independence is on there. And I thought then listening to you, you know, it occurs to me like we are not just out here to maximize our utility. I mean, cause if we were doing that, like you said, you'd just be working all the time. I mean, we, we are human beings and, uh, there's a lot more that goes into our care than only the financials. Um, you mentioned a few things like relationships, certainly, especially in, in our stress out world today, our mental health, spiritual self care. And there's just so many dimensions to, to being a human being and perhaps too much of, uh, I find myself as a financial advisor.
Speaker 2 00:34:37 Sometimes we need too much towards the engine of how do I get to financial independence faster and how do I get more money? And, and we're hopefully creating a space for us to say, okay, that's probably missing the mark having more money, uh, when you're 65 or achieving it, uh, at age 60 or age 50, if that ends up destroying some other aspect of your life that could have been rich and beautiful, uh, that that might not be a sacrifice worth making and all of this, you know, anyone listened to this and be like, yeah, yeah, yeah. But look, I mean, we just look around and we see the way that people are living their lives. And we, we know that this is not a message. That is, that is really hitting home for a lot of people because the focus does become so much on how can I get more money or how can I get to a certain amount of money faster than the other person in a more efficient way?
Speaker 2 00:35:39 How can I maximize these dollars? And, and there's again, nothing wrong with maximizing your money and things like that. But if it comes, if it comes in a way that, uh, is harmful to yourself as your family, we've gotta, we've gotta be questioning of that. There's a, have you ever seen the movie citizen Kane by any chance? No, but I know, I know, you know of, I mean, how can you not know other, right. I mean, I, I am DB, this is like movie a website, right? I'm DB, I believe I'm saying it right. They will assist in cannon like the top 100. It's like number 94, I think. And then Ryan tomatoes has, I think as number four, I was like best movies of all time. And, um, as someone who's seen the movie twice, I am honestly shocked by those ratings because it's, you know, it's an interesting movie.
Speaker 2 00:36:27 It's not something I would be like, oh man, that's like the best move I've ever seen. But yeah, there's a bit of a cipher from cased and movies and things like that. But the messaging of the movie without giving, you know, without giving away is there's a gentleman who has everything that money can buy. And yet he's unsatisfied. He leaves life unsatisfied that doesn't score the movie because the movie goes along a different path of, of discovering what he does care about. But money is vital to our existence. We need it to survive. We needed to, uh, you know, take care of ourselves and not having, not having enough of it to make our ends meet can cause some real problems. But, uh, assuming that we've covered our needs and that, you know, we, we have enough to live by getting another 50,000, a hundred thousand dollars, probably isn't going to move the needle very much in terms of our overall happiness.
Speaker 2 00:37:25 But we, I think that we oftentimes assume that it will, uh, that next, that next dollar is really going to make us happier. And it goes a little bit to, um, something that you're likely familiar with and probably some of your listeners too. Um, but he doesn't like treadmill. And it's the, the concept is basically that, uh, we strive for something oftentimes a material possession and we achieve it. It provides a short term thrills and excitement, but very quickly we adjust our lives, uh, to having it. And it then becomes pursuit of the next thing. And I'll tell you what I've experienced this personally. So many times, like you just lose count. You know, one of the most recent ones for me was finishing my master's degree and I, you know, saying life is going to be different for you. Once that mastery is over finish the master's degree, not an ounce of difference in terms of like, like happiness level and things like that.
Speaker 2 00:38:25 You know, it was just like, I was looking towards that mark. I passed it and it was like, okay, I'm still who I am right now. And so having that extra money or that extra thing, isn't likely going to change our lives in a, in a, in a way for enduring happiness, we might say, right. Technology changed their lives in dramatic ways. And sometimes unintended consequences ways where holy cow, man, I get distracted by my phone way too much. It's really concerning to me. You know, it's a great technology, but it's also has some unintended side effects, but we think that maybe having the next gadget where the next dollar is going to make us happier guy be careful because you know what, it might not. And we get caught up. We get caught too often in the pursuit of those.
Speaker 1 00:39:11 Yep. Definitely. So financial independence, fantastic thing to shoot for. But what we're saying is maybe taking a time, a step back and thinking beyond that and asking yourself like, what's really most important, where am I going? Where do I want to go? I'm thinking of some like, so I think sometimes you can, it's hard to self-diagnose this kind of stuff. Like the stuff we're talking about is probably one of the falls in the camp of like difficult to self-diagnose. So I'm thinking what are some maybe tips? And I have one in mind, I'll start off with my tip. So what are some, some thoughts that come to mind for like methods of testing the waters on this? Like checking your temperature, like, how are you doing in relation to, are you living a good life? Are you, are you in balance? And so with what I was thinking about for, for me, that's worked really well is so if I'm talking about like financial independence, the pursuit of, for me, that means working harder to kind of build more wealth from that sort of thing.
Speaker 1 00:40:21 So one of the best things for me to do is to ask my wife, how are we doing on this whole balance thing? And she, my wife is very direct and she'll tell me exactly what she's feeling and thinking. And, um, give me a really good idea of how balanced I am. And when she says she's also has the same values as I do too. So she's going to want relationships in time with our family and that sort of thing. So anytime I'm kind of, and probably the times that I am asking my wife, it's usually because I deep down know that I am kind of going off the tracks a little, or maybe I've been not as good about that sort of thing, but what other, do you have any ideas Donovan come to mind of like ways to kind of check your temperature on, um, how are you doing with this sort of stuff?
Speaker 2 00:41:12 Yeah. Well, let me first start off by saying, man, what a blessing to have, you know, have a, a partner in crime, if you will, you know, have your wife be able to give you some really good feedback. Um, that is definitely one of the first things that comes to mind for me too, is talking to someone you love, who you trust and who is also willing to provide honest feedback, um, because sometimes, sometimes people that we love and trust are also, they want to be sensitive. You know, they're, they're, they're worried that what they're going to say could be upsetting. So make sure that it's something that's going to give you a good direct answer as well. And you know, I, looking back to some of the themes of our conversation so far, do you honestly do, I think if, if you have created that vision document and you are looking at it on a weekly basis, I think that you're going to realize if you're not on track, I think you are right.
Speaker 2 00:42:08 I mean, I, I, I agree with you that, that we can, you know, self deceive ourselves sometimes and say, Hey, there's not a problem when there really is. If you combine it with talking to people that are going to give you a good, honest answer, and also really looking at that vision document, really comparing it to what life is like today. I think that should be revealing. One other thing about, you know, this idea of like, of having a vision document, we shouldn't, we shouldn't fool ourselves into thinking that life is going to be how we envision it immediately. It will be something that will transition over time. You know, it's not going to be there today, but as we continue looking at it, we'll notice a little ways that it comes about. So it's kind of this neat process of actually creating something that, that you've envisioned. So I think those are the two ways that I would, I would say, Hey, this is, this is a way for you to realize whether or not you're on track.
Speaker 1 00:43:01 I think those, those are great. And maybe if you're not, um, or even if you are married, um, another alternative, you know, you can have there's people that are close in your life and you, you probably already know that the people that are the good ones to talk to about this kind of stuff, like my mom, for example, she's I love her. And she's, she's great. She's good. If I need her to say yes about she's always going to support anything I ever bring up. So she's great about building me up, but, but not, not for when I need like real pain, you know, potentially painful painfully honest advice. So, you know, having people in your lives and having the courage to go stick your neck out and ask them about something. I think that's a big deal. A lot of people, that's not as easy as it sounds when you say it. Um, but in reality, the act of doing it is it's a challenge to say, because essentially you're putting yourself out there and you're saying, I'm not sure I'm perfect. You know, I'm not sure I'm, uh, maybe not doing the best job here, what you think,
Speaker 2 00:44:08 Oh man being vulnerable. It's tough. Really, really tough. I agree with that.
Speaker 1 00:44:14 That's something else I'm working on. Yeah. That's
Speaker 2 00:44:19 I mean, good for you. It's we all, we all want to present a front like, Hey, things are, things are going just fine, but most of us have real problems that we're dealing with. Insecurities, imposter syndrome. You know, I hear about a lot of young physicians who are just not really feeling like they are, you know, authentic. And, uh, you think about all the time and experience and training that they've gone through. You'd be like, oh, of course you are. But yeah, those are, those are, those are real struggles.
Speaker 1 00:44:50 Awesome. Well, Donovan, it's been fun talking through this as always, and I appreciate you coming on to a chat.
Speaker 2 00:44:57 Yeah. It has been a pleasure. And if I could take just one more minute to just, uh, describe one other experience real quick, if you don't monitor indefinitely. So here's a final experience. Final thoughts. About a year ago, I was sitting on the beach with my three-year-old daughter and we were sitting down, uh, she was sitting in my lap and we're just watching the ways and we're eating some cherries and I'm holding this little baggy and she is spitting those cherry pits right into that baggy. And it occurred to me in that moment that I would, I would not trade the experience, the feelings, the emotions for any sum of money. And so I think if we encapsulate all of this again, coming full circle, yes. Go for financial independence. It's a great goal shoe for it. Put your financial house in order. Absolutely do all those things that are proven and good that you're reading about. That makes sense, but make sure you're having those little experiences too, with the people that you care about because those experiences are going to be worth a lot more than money. So Daniel is always a, always a pleasure chatting with you. I look forward to future conversations and thank you so much.
Speaker 1 00:46:17 Definitely. I'm glad you shared that last one. That that is where it's at. That's and the idea thought of missing something like that because you're pushing the gas too hard and nobody wants to have that completely agree. Awesome. Well, thanks Donovan. Thanks as always. Thank you so much for joining us today. If you found this valuable, please give us a review on iTunes and share with a friend. Also check out our
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