Speaker 1 00:00:08 What's up, everyone. Welcome to the finance for physicians podcast. I'm your host, Daniel Raimi. Join me as we dig into what it looks like for physicians to begin using their finances as a tool to live better lives. You can learn more about our
[email protected] let's. Jump into today's episode. Hey guys, how's it going? I'm excited today to share my recent conversation with Dr. John Booth. John is an accomplished physician, speaker and blogger has had all kinds of professional success. What I think is especially great about John is his courage to be vulnerable, which is what we're going to be talking about today. And that's, despite all the cultural pressures that really all of us are feeling that are pulling us in the opposite direction today. We're going to discuss a little bit more about his story and why he chose to practice medicine in what he describes is the mental health closet for two decades and how medicine's intense focus on the quality of patient care is generally a good thing, but in some cases has unintended negative consequences.
Speaker 1 00:01:12 One of those is the failure to address physician's own mental wellness. And in John's case, the resulting pressure to hide mental health flaws, that in reality are the very things that make you human physicians and really all of us feel the pressure to be perfect, but we all know that's impossible and vulnerability or acknowledging your imperfection is really the key to being human. John and I talk about why he courageously chose to publicly share his mental health diagnosis several years ago, after successfully hiding it for 20 years and how he was able to muster up the courage to be extremely vulnerable and share his story in such a big way. We also talk about how sharing this has positively impact his life in all the most important ways, including his ability to care for patients and why there were some not so positive experiences that resulted from his sharing his story and why John feels even those uncomfortable encounters are really healthy discussions that need to happen in the profession to improve its future.
Speaker 1 00:02:19 We also talk about some ways you might be able to become more vulnerable yourself. So I think it's going to be a, a great conversation today. So let's jump right into it, John, how's it going? Thanks for joining me today. It is really my pleasure to be here. Thanks for asking me. Yeah, I'm excited to chat today. Uh, we were talking a little bit before this, uh, before we started recording and how, uh, John's story is just such a great example of a physician, just really being vulnerable, um, especially giving, given the circumstances and whatnot. So I'm really excited for you to, to share your story and for us to kind of chat through that and how that was for you today. So really, really appreciate you coming on to chat here. It's my
Speaker 2 00:03:03 Pleasure.
Speaker 1 00:03:04 So before we jump into your story, um, can you just share maybe a little bit of background in your career in medicine and kind of a high level, what specialty you practice? Um, that sort of stuff.
Speaker 2 00:03:18 Sure. So I'm a psychiatrist and, uh, um, uh, at the end of my career, I've done both hospital-based work for many, many, many years, and then had a private practice, you know, on the side for all my years of clinical work, some years back, I decided to step forward and acknowledge that I have bipolar disorder and I have presented at, uh, large conferences like the American psychiatric association and to small groups of medical students and residents as well. I have thought that it's been important to share my story on because we physicians sometimes operate in a world where we are told on many levels, we give ourselves messages as well as a professional culture, encourages us to keep certain things quiet and hidden from view. So I've thought it's been best to step forward, you know, in some effort recap because perhaps there's a greater good in doing so.
Speaker 1 00:04:22 Yeah. And we, we were just talking to as well. We, we totally are on the same page on that front. Sometimes it's not the easy road to share, especially some of these more challenging things at the, it sounds like your experience has been very much positive and that's, that's always excellent to hear. So you started out, you, did, you had it kind of hidden in, tell me about kind of when you shared your story or what was the timeline I'm curious about, uh, if you had a period of time in your career and not sharing it and how long that was and
Speaker 2 00:04:57 Sure. Yeah. I, um, kept my story to myself except for those people who were very, very close to me, you know, in my life, uh, professionally for a couple of decades, I was in the, uh, what I call the mental health closet. And it was only in the last five years ago that I decided to step forward publicly. And I did that in a very big way at the international society of bipolar disorders. Um, where I remember I stood up in front of the audience and the first thing I said was that I am a psychiatrist and I'm also a psychiatric patient, um, because I have bipolar disorder. It's not to say that I didn't get treatment for that, but I also delayed treatment for a couple of decades. I was able to navigate my way through things, despite the fact that I was cycling up and down. And, uh, that was a challenge. But, you know, I learned over the years for both historical reasons, you know, in terms of growing up as well as professional reasons that I needed to, uh, secret things away and that wasn't to my benefit. And it probably wasn't to the benefit of my clinical work, you know, I must be honest. So I guess it's been over the last five years that I've really stepped forward and shared my story with others.
Speaker 1 00:06:22 Yeah. And before you shared it, so you had quite a few years of kind of holding it in, you feel like it was inhibiting your ability to practice medicine, you kind of hinted at that you feel like you could have been a better practitioner had you shared it or
Speaker 2 00:06:36 Yeah, very much. I mean, the degree to which my clinical work suffered is really hard to say. I mean, I'm hoping it wasn't, uh, to a terrible degree, you know, we did well professionally, you know, I was thought of, well, I ran hospital-based programs and I think my clinical practice was a really good one, but, you know, it's always hard to know the effect of being hidden. And in some ways in authentic when you are, uh, in such in a relate in a, um, in a profession where, uh, there is, you know, uh, an honest dialogue that has to happen between patient and physician. So I'm hoping it didn't get in the way too much, but to be honest, I'm probably not the best judge of that, you know, in, in some ways,
Speaker 1 00:07:30 Right? Yeah. It's, it's, it's that, um, that authenticity and trust professions, that's in our work with helping people with their money, you know, we're kind of the end of the day and the, one of the higher trust professions and vulnerability is part of, of, uh, having a trusting relationship. And it's difficult to have really, really solid relationships when there is lack of vulnerability, but it seems like medicine. Um, and really our culture as a whole, it seems like it's a difficult or maybe uncool or, you know, not, um, not highly looked upon to be vulnerable, but what are your thoughts on that in the culture of medicine? And just maybe just the culture in general, like vulnerability to me is like the opposite of perfectionism and or maybe some people would say success. Um, but what are your thoughts on just kind of the overall culture around us and how that's kind of played into being able to be vulnerable?
Speaker 2 00:08:38 Sure. That's a really good question. I think that we place a premium on having our doctors be Uber competent and to be infallible, you know, in some ways, and of course we can understand that in some ways, because we're placing our care in our health, in their hands. So it is a very, very human, uh, expectation that, you know, we are in the hands of someone who is in fact really competent, but you know, that being said, I think physicians pay a very, very big grace at times for that expectation on a, some ways as I said, we can understand it, but in other ways we physicians expect ourselves, not just our patients expect it, but we physicians expect ourselves to perform at times inhuman levels. And there's a terrible price. I think that doctors pay, you know, my story is not so unusual. I mean, it's different that, um, I have bipolar disorder for many other doctors, but it's not really that unusual in terms of doctors keeping their mental health conditions in the closet still on when your doctors are anxious and worried and burnt out these days.
Speaker 2 00:10:06 I mean, especially in the context of COVID, but even prior to COVID, it's been very tough at times for doctors to express a vulnerability, but also another way to say it is to express a certain humanity to acknowledge that, Hey, um, I need help. Doctors are not good, frankly, at asking others to help them. Many of them coming to the profession as a care givers, not care receivers. So part of my story has been how I have navigated my way from becoming in fact, going, traveling the distance between, uh, starting as a care giver and ending up not just as a caregiver, but a care receiver and feeling okay about that.
Speaker 1 00:10:58 Yeah. I've heard a lot of people talk about what you were just talking about with the profession overall and the stigma. And I was curious in looking at some of the research on the, the numbers, and I found something from ACEP, which is the emergency medicine, one of their associations. Uh, they had some, I think this was done. So this was done in October 20, 20 earliest in October, 2020, according to their, uh, survey 45% of emergency physicians report that they're not comfortable seeking mental health treatment, if needed 73% feel like there's stigma in the workplace, 57% report being concerned for their job, if they were to seek mental health treatment, 27% report that they have avoided seeking mental health treatment and fewer professional repercussions. And so, and this survey was done, um, kind of in the middle of COVID or posts, you know, I was going to say post spike, but now it's going back up again, 87% of the emergency physicians also reported feeling more stress, uh, since the start of the pandemic. So does that kind of line up, I mean, it seems like that's very much indicative of what you were just describing is that there's this there's this pressure there. And a lot of physicians are struggling with this.
Speaker 2 00:12:15 Yeah, very much. Those numbers are exactly in line with what I have seen. And frankly what I have felt know over my career, um, you know, it is difficult for physicians for many reasons to step forward. Again, one is that most of us are historically sort of perfectionistic and come from innate places of being care givers. But let us remember as well that there are real professional consequences and repercussions for stepping forward. This is not just a fantasy people are spread they're doctors and suffer real consequences in terms of their licensure. For example, many states ask very unfair questions of doctors in terms of their medical license applications and renewals questions. Like have you ever had a mental health problem? Now I understand the rest of that question, you know, but, um, the problem is that it drives doctors underground because they feel like if you step forward and honest with that answer, they put their entire career at risk. So the scary part for doctors is being open and feeling free to acknowledge, you know, and to get the help that they really,
Speaker 1 00:13:50 What happens if someone answers yes. To a question like that?
Speaker 2 00:13:54 Well, it really depends upon the state, uh, because, uh, medical licensure is, uh, various, depending upon the state. In some states, there are programs that are set up to help doctors, route situations, where they feel like they are going through mental health crises, um, or need treatment. And in other states than it is really not the case. I know of cases of doctors because I've treated them where their license has been placed at great risk. And you see, we can understand that, that, uh, the basic thrust is to make sure that ultimately patients are well cared for, and that doctors are not compared. We can understand that. But the accurate question to ask is not whether you've had a mental health issue in your entire life. You know, let's be real. If a doctor has had a panic attack or a history of depression, they can be functioning enormously. Well, once that is treated, the more accurate question to ask is whether current mental health symptoms that a doctor has impairs their capacity to do their job. And that is a valid question because if that is the case, ensure doctor needs to go on a medical leave and step back. But most of the time that's not what has transpired. Doctors are just burnt out or depressed or anxious. And they just need a little bit of help,
Speaker 1 00:15:35 Probably partly because they've been answering that question. No, when the answer is yes. In other words, holding it in and which Jack was the problem. Exactly. And it
Speaker 2 00:15:45 So happens often that happens often. Yes. Which is
Speaker 1 00:15:48 Crazy. If so, I'm going back to your story. Was it a overnight thing? You're like, I got to get this off my chest. What made you decide to, uh, start answering yes. To that question? Or, you know, start sharing it, nothing for you. You went on stage and said, this is me. Uh, but what, was there a trigger or did it just kind of happen all the time?
Speaker 2 00:16:09 Yes, but what happened for me is that my professional acknowledgement followed my personal acknowledgement. My story is such that my cycling over many years intensified for various reasons, including the fact that the treatment that I was receiving really wasn't working for me. So what happened is that on a clinical level and on a personal level, things really came crashing down. And I had to decide whether I was going to fully engage in treatment, uh, in a very effective way so that I can stabilize my symptoms or not. And on a personal level, so much was at risk for me, uh, in terms of my, uh, my relationships, my friendships, and, uh, as well, I think in terms of my capacity to function, you know, as a doctor. So I really had to step forward in my personal life and share with family and friends, uh, that I have bipolar disorder.
Speaker 2 00:17:17 And once I did that, I just realized that there was no reason not to step forward professionally. So once I had the, the groundwork laid on a personal level, it just made sense to me. And it really wasn't that difficult to step forward. And to say to my colleagues, I have bipolar disorder. Uh, I started out a little bit slowly, uh, you know, uh, you know, sharing with, uh, two colleagues first on this side. And, uh, their reaction was great. Um, but then it was really when I stepped forward in a big way, um, at a conference and shared it, that the word was really out. And I must say that I hope people can kind of hear this, that the consequences of me doing. So have been almost universally wonderful. Uh, I have received so much affirmation and support from my colleagues didn't expect that. I wondered whether there was going to be a lot of disapproval and chastisement from, uh, professional colleagues. And that has not been my experience at all. So my story actually is a, is a good one. I mean, it's a heartening one and I hope it empowers others to step forward and to, um, disclose their diagnosis.
Speaker 1 00:18:45 Yeah. I'm glad it's been positive experience. I know. Um, it's not easy. Everybody feels that, um, pressure and to kind of hold things in. And have you had any negative experiences with, um, sharing it? I know on the front end, you, if you're like most people, I'm sure you've thought about all these negative, you probably tell your, these stories in your head about all the negative things that are going to happen. And it sounds like it's been overall very positive, but have you, did you have any, um, poor experiences or did it, any of those negative stories? We tell ourselves play out.
Speaker 2 00:19:19 I did have a few people, uh, at conferences where I presented come up to me after and shared with me that they felt that I should have left profession and that I couldn't possibly be fit to be a psychiatrist, even stabilized. Their argument was that given the nature of the psychiatric illness, whether it is a recurrent major depression or a sick lik mood disorder or a current anxiety disorder, that it was likely that I was once again, going to become ill and that would impact patient care. And while I understood their point, my argument back to them was that we simply can't, exorcised everyone from the profession who is struggling with a mental health issue. We can't have as a response. Well, everyone should leave the profession. If they happen to have a mental health issue, that is not a solution. The solution is find ways to allow ourselves to care for each other, find ways in our culture to help our colleagues step forward and get the treatment that they need. And I understood where these people were coming from, but I take a very different perspective on it.
Speaker 1 00:20:50 That's quite a bold, they'd said that to your face. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:20:54 Yes. Look, you know, I think that that was a good thing that they did that because you see, what we have to have at this point is a dialogue and a dialogue means people of differing views stepping forward so that we can have these conversations and ultimately come to a place of common ground. There is a lot of stigma and prejudice against mental health issues, as we know in the physician and the clinical community. But we must hear the voices of those who are on the other side of the fence so that we can, uh, hopefully find some common ground. There has to be a dialogue. And as they say, you know, you can't clap with one hand. Well, we need, uh, we need to hear from all sides here and we're, we're big enough and strong enough. And I think it's important enough to have those kinds of discussions. I think people of good will, can sit in a room and talk these things out and come to a place where we can balance very well taking care of our patients in the best way possible. And allowing doctors to take care of themselves as well.
Speaker 1 00:22:18 <inaudible> and that requires outsides being open and honest, I guess, from their standpoint, them sharing a lot of people, there was probably a hundred other people that thought the same thing that just didn't have the courage to say it to your face. So in that way they were gracious. Okay.
Speaker 2 00:22:34 That is exactly right. They are because their opinion can be viewed as being harsh and judgmental fundamentally where these folks are coming from is that they are trying to make a case that the best patient care is what they're after. They're trying to make that argument. And that is a very understandable place as a doctor to come from. Again, I don't think that it's a sustainable given the numbers of doctors that are struggling with mental health issues, but it's the case that, you know, we can understand on a humid level, um, they're making,
Speaker 1 00:23:17 Do you wish you had a complaint on all this earlier in your career?
Speaker 2 00:23:21 Very much, very much. I wish that I were at that place. I think my career would have been very different. I think stepping forward as a young career doctor and acknowledging that I have bipolar disorder would have affected my career in a big way. Perhaps there might have been some negative repercussions, but perhaps there might have been positive repercussions too. And I think that, uh, in terms of being authentic and being seen as human, I think the pluses would have definitely outweighed the minuses remained pretty convinced of that because in the years, since I've stepped forward, I've received, uh, the, um, support of numerable colleagues. And that has just reaffirmed for me that I wish I would've done it earlier, but, you know, Hey, we're at where we're at when we're at there and not before.
Speaker 1 00:24:24 Yeah. You gotta do what you gotta do when you're talking to younger physicians. I'm sure I would have to think you have, you've put your stuff out there. You have a blog even, and have some good videos and even did a documentary, correct. On your experience. So it's definitely, um, any of you guys listen and you can go out and see the full story and hear all sorts of things. Um, kind of he and John is very honest and, and transparent and vulnerable, like we've been talking about, but I have to imagine you've had lots of, um, physicians of all ages, but I'm particularly curious about the younger ones and especially the ones in training. I have this, I feel like that would be the most challenging point in your career, potentially, maybe I'm wrong, but, uh, to, uh, really come clean on that because you're not even, um, you're, you're so dependent on everything, everything around you and, you know, held back by these big student loans, but have you had many young physicians come to you? And if so, I'm curious, what, what, what your suggestions or, or feedback was to them that maybe they're struggling with mental health or maybe, I mean, everybody, that's the other thing. Everybody has mental health issues. I don't, I kind of not clear on, I mean, there are mental health conditions, but like somebody that doesn't have mental health issues, I have concerns about them being, having problems or dishonesty or whatnot. So, but younger physicians, what's been your experience in conversations with them.
Speaker 2 00:25:56 I spend so much time speaking with medical students and residents. I've done that virtually, you know, for the last, uh, year to, to, you know, during COVID. But before that, you know, it's sort of traveling around the country and it's pretty wonderful to have an opportunity to sit down with eight or 10 or 12, you know, medical students at a time rather than stand up at a conference, you know, in front of a larger audience, because I have been struck at times with how much they are willing to share, um, about what is going on with them. Now, that being said, I think there's a greater pressure on medical students and residents, young career physicians these days, even than I experienced when I was going through my, uh, my earlier career. I think the pressure is tremendous and bring forward when you have supervisors or deans of medical schools or directors of programs moving forward, when you're dependent upon those people to, uh, affirm how well you're doing, and then you have the future of your career in their hands.
Speaker 2 00:27:12 In some ways, it's a very, very challenging place for young doctor to be. I completely understand why sometimes medical students, uh, you know, and residents don't step forward. Now, that being said, one of the wonderful thing is that it's happening these days in terms of the physician community is there is an increasing awareness of mental health issues amongst young doctors. There's a higher rate of suicide amongst doctors, and it is not surprising that I've spoken with medical students and residents from programs where there has been a suicide and different programs have responded to this differently. There have been some wonderful responses, you know, for example, residency training programs and medical schools have set up committees where they are focused entirely the mental health of their young trainees, uh, where they have dedicated time for support groups, uh, for, uh, you know, trainees to go to where they have changed their insurance plans. So that mental health treatment can be covered where they have capacity to engage in mental health in a way that they can, in some ways bypass some of the people that are empowered so they can do that sort of confidentially. So there are many ways that things have moved forward, unfortunately had, has, um, on the back of some, some terrible consequences in terms of, um, uh, you know, in positions, uh, harming themselves, or even if it hasn't gotten to that stage, having their work obviously impaired because they are, um, unwell.
Speaker 1 00:29:07 Yeah. Cause you know, on a lot of people say, I'm not going to come clean on this because I want to preserve my ability to practice medicine. But in reality, the longer you hold in things that actually starts to cause problems with your ability to practice and practice for a long time, or maybe, you know, maybe even in the short-term, but it definitely. And so we did, we deal with people in their money and, and uh, I think from our perspective you want, uh, our clients that practice medicine, this is not always case, but a lot of them that practice like later into their career or later into 60 seventies, like the longer they practice, typically they have a healthy balance. Um, and have they're doing things like paying attention to their mental health and being vulnerable and, and that has rewarded them financially. But I, I do see some people that are really just working, hammering it out, uh, perfectionism focused or, you know, trying to earn as much as they possibly can, trying to, you know, be the perfect physician and are spinning their wheels and burning out and ending their career as a result of that much sooner, which, and there's not even, it's not even about the money.
Speaker 1 00:30:30 There's a lot of other more major things that happen from that. But, um, I think financially in, in your experience, you sounds like you've done a very good job kind of balancing all this stuff and have been financially rewarded for that. But do you feel like with your finances, has that tied into your ability to, has it ever been a undercurrent to your feelings about sharing things? Has there ever been any, any, uh, concerns about, you know, if you were to lose your license and come clean on this thing, there is that cost of potentially losing income. Has that ever entered into your mind? And even though you've done a good job with your finances or has that been a non-issue?
Speaker 2 00:31:17 Oh, I think it's actually has been an issue for me at one point in my career, you know, untreated psychiatric illness can affect one's life in so many ways, both personally, in terms of friendships, in terms of intimate relationships, in terms of your physical health, but also in terms of your, uh, financial wellbeing, when things had spun out of control for me when, uh, I refer to them a little while ago, um, it was the only time in my career where I thought it might affect my job. Uh, no, I'm not sure it affected my clinical work, but I had a hospital-based job and things had really been spinning out of control for me in a bad way, in terms of being very depressed. It was hard for me to struggle, to keep things inside. And what I ended up doing is deciding that I had to leave hospital-based work because I just couldn't, uh, attend meetings. I couldn't have those expectations on me. I didn't feel like I could really perform in way that I needed to perform. And that was a big financial struggle for me. I ended up doing fine in terms of private practice and loved my career that I chose to go in that direction. But it's just one small example. I think of how the scary aspect of being destabilized in life, including financially can be the result of untreated psychiatric, uh, untreated psychiatric illness.
Speaker 1 00:33:00 I think a lot of it is just uncertainty in general, whether it be financial uncertainty or uncertainty about what people are going to say about you.
Speaker 2 00:33:08 Correct? Correct. Yes. It's scary to, uh, to go to those places.
Speaker 1 00:33:13 Right. But in a lot of cases, that's the healthier path, right?
Speaker 2 00:33:17 Um, I think it's simply unnecessary and bedtimes too much to bear to carry around this very heavy weight on your shoulders. Um, both personally and professionally, and, you know, remember so much is at stake, your sense of identity is wrapped up in being a doctor. And when the, at least in our own mind, in terms of in as well as in terms of reality is placed at risk, then it's a scary place to be.
Speaker 1 00:33:52 Yeah. And it's also easier I think, to talk about it on the backend, um, and kind of reassess things, but, um, if you're living in it and that's like a hard spot to be in, when you're butting up against that potential big, scary uncertainty of, you know, whatever it is, maybe it's sharing something about your situation or whatever, you know, there's all sorts of things like that. You have any suggestions for like how, cause I, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm a big fan of kind of leaning in to it. And, but it's, it's very mentally, it's challenging on all fronts and you have done a, you've done a good job at it and you are a professional and you help people dealing with those same, big, scary things and any suggestions for how to kind of when you're right up against that big, scary reveal or uncertainty, or you kinda in, in, I feel like in your heart, you kind of know if you peel back the layers enough, in my experience, it feels like, you know, the difference between something, cause you'll tell yourself like, well, that's going to be, I don't need to do this, but with those scary things that are going to be good for you, you and your heart know that like that's probably the right thing to be honest with.
Speaker 1 00:35:09 Um, but how do people do it? How do you make the jump?
Speaker 2 00:35:13 That's a good question. Um, it did take me a long time. So there is a process here and there is ultimately, um, we can run ourselves at some point, there's going to be a price that people pay, uh, that doctors pay for not taking care of themselves. So I want to differentiate two things because it's important. Not everyone needs to follow my path, which is one where I have stepped forward in a much more public way, having that ability and the fact that I have a, um, a mental health condition, uh, remember the first step is to have doctors simply get treatment, even if it's in a quiet, confidential way, even if it is not professionally acknowledged to anyone, it would be a fantastic step. If doctors merely got, uh, got treatment for themselves, that is not happening in the way that it needs to happen.
Speaker 2 00:36:20 Doctors are scared even to see a psychiatrist behind closed doors. Confidentiality. I mean, from a, a confidential point of view, doctors are worried, you know, there are things like insurance reimbursements and pharmacy prescriptions and things like that. You have to answer yes to the question now. Correct? Correct. But I think that it's important to remember that that is, that is the best first step. I think that there's likely someone in your life or some few people in your life where you probably can share your diagnosis with if you can come to trust them. But again, we're not asking doctors to step forward in the most public of is, but I want to say something as well, which is very, very important. You know, sometimes we place all the burden on the shoulders of doctors to step forward themselves and to disclose to themselves or others that they have a psychiatric condition. And I think that that is unfair. Let us remember that the profession has an obligation to make it easier for doctors to do so. Those who have been those who have been underwhelmed in some ways have to step forward and get treatment.
Speaker 2 00:37:48 Well, it's a <inaudible> environment so that it's easier for doctors to step forward. And that is happening, you know, in the professional culture, the issue of mental health among doctors is definitely rising to the surface. The APA has, uh, expended a lot of energy in terms of trying to address things like physician burnout and psychiatric illness, many, many conferences, these days have many, uh, sections, uh, related to doctor mental health. So that's a great thing, uh, but we need to keep that ball rolling so that, uh, there's an, uh, a willingness and an openness to help our colleagues in need. Yeah. I think
Speaker 1 00:38:35 For me, at least it's getting kind of over this hurdle of recognizing that we're all human and we have lots of issues, you know, and then, uh, cause it's, I feel I'm kind of a perfectionist lean pretty, pretty heavy maybe. And, uh, with perfectionism, it's like you are invincible, you know, you kind of tell yourself that story. And then the problem with that is it's impossible. So as these natural human flaws come up and there's not just one there's, you tend to shove it down and hide it in there.
Speaker 2 00:39:16 Right.
Speaker 1 00:39:18 Which is not healthy. Right.
Speaker 2 00:39:20 Right. Exactly. Yeah. You know, one of the things I've learned over the years is that I do not need to stop speeding bullets or leap tall buildings in a single bound. I do not need to be Superman. What has helped me very, very much is to come to a place where I can accept my humanness. That is what has allowed me to come to a place of peace and acceptance. You see if we frame it as, uh, we are damaged or flawed or somehow pathological than it is very tough place to actually sit with that and come to a place of peace. But if we can reduce it to a place where I am just human, that I can accept that and live with that. To me, that is what has provided the freedom because you see, I can live with that. I can live with that just fine.
Speaker 1 00:40:27 Right. You're a normal, I mean, you argument, um, with your, all the flaws and that's just, that actually makes you more human. Um, it's interesting. Uh, I have, I was talking to my wife about this yesterday, the day before. Um, I feel like there's very few, uh, guys, like I can really open up and share, you know, all the holes, you know, story of my life, the secrets and everything like that a lot, you know, a lot of times it's just like, let's just talk about sports or whatever in surface level conversations. But any of the people I think of as like truly good friends are the ones and it may be even necessary to be tight with somebody to share like all your humanness, your baggage. And when you don't share that, or the less you share that, the harder it is to kind of get close to somebody. And I, we were talking about that. It's just like, uh, the tendency, the cultural pool is to be kind of strong, especially for men. I think powerful that pulls pulls you away from people it's not. And it's for me talking to somebody else, it's just all surface level. I'm like, what about like, where's your flaws? Like talk, you seem too perfect for me, but let's talk about reality. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:41:47 That's very much, you know, I think humans are wired to connect, uh, and that's a very wonderful and healthy thing. And it takes a certain kind of courage and strength and vulnerability to show people who we truly are. I think men have a particularly challenging time with this, given the expectations, the cultural expectations that are placed on us, but women do not escape, uh, this either. I do think that your capacity to help others to see you change the course of your life, that has been my experience. And I would encourage people to, uh, to give it some thought because you don't really further your life in all the most important ways by hiding and by secreting things away.
Speaker 1 00:42:51 Right. And I'm sure everybody listening has, you know, maybe one or two, but maybe like 50 kind of hidden things that they'd rather not. Yes. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:43:01 Probably
Speaker 1 00:43:02 More 50 in, I believe more than 50, probably more than 50, but everybody's got all that stuff, the human stuff. So I think everybody would be, you know, well-served like John was saying like in the important areas of life by sharing, maybe just start with one little small one, if you're, especially if you're having trouble with it, it's just talk to one person about one little thing and, uh, test it out for a little bit.
Speaker 2 00:43:30 Sure. You know, you can ask yourself if a friend came to you and shared something that was close to their heart, how would you react now? The chances are most people or most good friends would be open and will be trying very hard to understand and would be supportive of that. So it's no different when a versus true, you probably have people in your life that would very much support you and understand you. And if you choose wisely, that can be something very, very freeing and something solidifying about, uh, relationships.
Speaker 1 00:44:17 And I think it improves, it improves well in certain experiences or times it might repel people. So it is probably good to set the expectation like every once in a while, you'll have a bad experience with someone that you share. But that is a great reason. It's, it's, it's for good reason that they're held and having them less connected to you is probably a good thing in life. But for most people it'll make you much tighter. And like, one of my best friends that I would consider right now is a guy that I run with every couple of days. And we just share like all the stuff, you know, like all the, all the, you know, good and bad stuff in life and we become tight. And I think it's strictly because of, of, uh, the vulnerability aspect.
Speaker 2 00:45:09 Yes. If I can say something that I have learned over a year is that there are few things in life that are as powerful and as freeing as authenticity.
Speaker 1 00:45:22 I totally agree. That is a good, good couple words to close it on. I think that's Your, let that one soak in. Well, John, I really enjoyed chatting. We need this. This has been fun. And I encourage everybody to check out, um, we'll link to John's, uh Bogen and some of his videos and encourage everybody to check those out and you can learn more about we didn't, we kind of skimmed the surface of your story, but you can learn more about that and his experiences.
Speaker 2 00:45:50 Yeah. Thank you so much. It's really been a pleasure to be here. It's been a fun conversation and I hope that there some people, some doctors or non-clinicians out there who have heard us talk and, uh, where something resonates with them in a ways that can be helpful.
Speaker 1 00:46:09 That is exactly right. That's if we can move the needle, correct. A lot of, a lot of times, it's just the one little step two. I mean, one little step, Small, teeny little, little step. That is a huge cause they can compound, like when you take the little tiny step turns in, you know, you can take another step and it doesn't have to be like, tell your deepest, darkest secret tomorrow. Exactly.
Speaker 2 00:46:32 Exactly. I like to say that we change the culture of silence. One conversation at a time right now.
Speaker 1 00:46:40 That's the way it goes. That is exactly right. Well, awesome. Well, thanks John.
Speaker 2 00:46:45 It's been my pleasure. Thank you so much
Speaker 1 00:46:48 As always. Thank you so much for joining us today. If you found this valuable, please give us a review on iTunes and share with a friend. Also check out our
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