Speaker 1 00:00:08 What's up, everyone. Welcome to the finance for physicians podcast. I'm your host, Daniel Raimi. Join me as we dig into what it looks like for physicians to begin using their finances as a tool to live better lives. You can learn more about our
[email protected] let's. Jump into today's episode. What's up guys today, I'm talking with Matt and Ashley Isles. They're a married couple, both are in practice physicians just now hitting their three-year mark in practice. And they're doing a great job of shaping their finances around their values and in particular their faith and giving to others. And so we're going to be talking today about what this has looked like for them and how they've been able to practice what they preach, despite all the temptation and pressures that we all really face that often are, or in the opposite direction of all of this. So I think you're going to enjoy hearing a little bit more about how they're doing this. So without further ado, let's jump into our conversation.
Speaker 2 00:01:09 So I, I was excited to talk to you guys. What I want to talk about mainly was kind of how you guys are really shaping your finances around your values. And sometimes that's easier said than done, but I know you guys are doing a great job there. And in particular with your charitable giving, um, I know it's important. We're going to talk a little bit about it now, like why it's important, what it looks like, that sort of thing. Um, but especially in medicine, I feel like the career track may makes it challenging, or it can be challenging with the, you know, student loans and delayed star, and there's all sorts of pressure in the world, conflicting or competing, uh, possible routes to put your money. So, and I think that's true for everyone, but despite all that you guys have done a good job with this, you've kind of made it happen. So did you, have you guys always been charitable or were you raised in a family that was chaired well, when did it all, all kind of start for,
Speaker 3 00:02:09 Well, for me, yes. Um, my parents kind of had a model growing up where they made sure to give the 10% consistently. And on top of that, you know, had various, you know, missionaries, they would support things like that. So I was sort of aware of their fiscal responsibility in that sense, even though the details of it, I was never privy to, but I think for me, it was really somewhere in, in college when I really had control of my own cashflow that, um, I, I found a weakness in myself where I really wasn't great at budgeting. And so for me, instead of trying to get the budget thing right, and then figure out how to give I decided from the get-go well, if I'm going to be a bad budgeter, as far as spending a little too much money on Starbucks or an extra pair of shoes or whatever, I'm going to be at least as generous with charitable things, missions things, things that, you know, will count for the kingdom. And so, um, I was actually, I put the planning part in the, on the back burner and just said, you know what, I'm going to be just as generous with the other and not worry. And of course, every time the budgeting thing has become more of a part of it. But I started from a position of, I have to, I have to give at least as generously with others as I'm being with myself because nothing else made sense to me biblically.
Speaker 4 00:03:41 So, uh, I grew up in a family that my parents were really good with money, very frugal. I think some of that stem from, uh, their parents who kind of experienced the depression on the tail end. And, uh, so they were always very wise with their finances, but they're also very consistent in their giving. So they're pretty much always 10 percenters, I guess, if you could call them that. Uh, and then for me, I think it instilled in me the importance of giving, but I think similar to Ashley, I felt a burden, uh, when opportunities would come with people close around me that, um, or requiring finances for, uh, mission trips or they were trying to raise for seminary or whatever, it was just feeling, uh, the opportunity to pour into them in that way. Even if it wasn't a strict 10% kind of deal.
Speaker 2 00:04:43 So really, I guess if you really boil it down, you can only do three things with your money. You can save it or spend it or give it away for you guys. You feel like, how do you rank the three of those save, spend, give
Speaker 3 00:04:57 You can have different answers. I think that for me, I would rank it as like, if I just was going off, what I would do without, um, other structure in place, I would probably say, spend, give safe would be my order, but in that some of our spending, we also prefer it to involve other people. So things like, you know, just picking up the tab when we're out to dinner with friends or, you know, a lot of our spending is still very like community and like socially oriented, if that makes sense, not necessarily charitable, but, but then yeah, giving is definitely are one of our favorite things to be able to do. Um, especially when there's a big need where we can just step in and take care of it. Um, for someone yeah. Savings obviously important, but it's not necessarily something we enjoy per se
Speaker 4 00:05:50 I'd call it. I'd call it, spend giving.
Speaker 2 00:05:54 Yeah. That's interesting that say that. I think as some people would argue that that's giving, so not charitable giving, not tax deductible giving, but, um, for example, uh, one of, one of my favorite ways to give lately is with like stuff that we have and my wife, uh, always, she's good about like to sell, she'll sell it on like Facebook marketplace or something like that. And, but I guess it randomly maybe a year or something, I'm like, why aren't we selling this stuff for, we don't really need the money. Why don't we just give it away? So whoever, and even just randomly sometimes just decide to give it to somebody that decides they want to buy it. So I feel the same. I feel when I give, when I do that, like we gave away furniture, a lot of furniture recently, and it wasn't a, technically it wasn't a tax deductible gift. Um, or another good example. I think of that is a big tips. Like leaving a really big tip, especially when you have a good, can I, you know, when you have a good connection or you can tell maybe they need something, that's a huge exam, a way to give somebody and it doesn't show up on your tax return per se. And it counts as spending is maybe how most people define is that the type of stuff
Speaker 3 00:07:19 That loves giving big tips. Yeah.
Speaker 4 00:07:22 Um, I'm a big fan of that. I think part of it too, is the trajectory of becoming a physician is such a long process. And most of it is being, uh, it's a process of being poured into with time and effort. And I think that was, uh, one of the biggest reliefs or, uh, know that's not the right word joys of coming out the other side and being able to bless others because you just spent a decade and a half taking from everybody around you.
Speaker 3 00:07:54 I think it's an interesting point because I think that the temptation goes the opposite direction to that. Like our profession is difficult and you feel like you're pouring yourself out all day for other people. And so the temptation is to feel like you deserve every penny you earn. Um, and that can be hard to combat.
Speaker 2 00:08:10 Yeah. Do you all feel imitation to, is the temptation to spend more money? You still, do you feel that, I mean, I feel with him, uh, with your buddy that you'd say or something, or, you know, fill up, so you're human, we're human.
Speaker 4 00:08:31 I'm always love spending money. Yeah. My parents said I was terrible as neighbor.
Speaker 3 00:08:36 Yeah. Yeah. I think, um, I think that one of the ways that the Lord has kind of protected us from that, um, is giving us the home that he has so far. Cause we live in a two bedroom, one bath house, um, in a pretty mixed income neighborhood. And we keep joking that, um, it's helpful to have the size of closet that we do because if we had a bigger closet, we would fill with more stuff. So it's probably true, but yeah. Temptation to spend more. Totally. And yes, we do that. We do that.
Speaker 2 00:09:09 What's interesting when you're in a neighborhood, the neighborhood is like a really big kind of group level temptation, I guess. So if you get in the nicer neighborhood, there's much more temptation in the nicer neighborhoods than there is in, you know, the, uh, lesser, because there's just less stuff.
Speaker 4 00:09:27 It's actually the opposite effect. I, uh, I tell a story sometimes that I heard from a couple of missionaries, who'd been on the field forever, uh, in Southeast Asia. And they had wrestled for many, many months. Maybe it was a couple of years, uh, in order to install one of those giant water basins on the top of their house in order to have running water because they knew it would alienate them from their neighbors. So I think the same thing could be said of living in a more mixed income neighborhood. You don't want to stick out.
Speaker 3 00:10:04 Yeah. You don't want to alienate people in your community by feeling like, oh, you're the rich person that lives on such and such street or whatever it can inhibit community.
Speaker 2 00:10:13 Right. So despite all that, um, there, you know, you have temptation like every one of us and you have even said, um, that, you know, safe spending is number one priority and then giving and then saving. So how have you been able to, most people get out of hand, they it's slippery slope. The spending part is a slippery slope and they kind of slip off of it or maybe more likely they slipped to like the top they slip into spending what they take. Um, um, how have you been able to carve out or not spend because saving and giving? I feel like they're kind of the same muscle, uh, at least from a financial standpoint, like a, get it out, carve it out first, but how have you all been able to do that despite all the temptation and pressures that are out
Speaker 4 00:11:09 There? I th I think it goes a little bit back to what Ashley said, and maybe you could clump it into like large purchases, large purchases, whether that's a home or vehicle or whatever. Uh, that's one thing. And then number two is hiring somebody else to save your money for you. So I was hoping you would say a little more meat on
Speaker 3 00:11:41 Those bones. So, um, I think one of the biggest places that I get a little uncomfortable with how extravagant we get sometimes is like occasions. Um, that's like a big temptation for us to kind of just be like, well, it's our time off, like go big. Like, um, and that, that is a very slippery slope. Um, sometimes when it comes to deciding to just pay more for what's easy, because as busy as we are, we don't want to have a lot of time to like plan the vacation in the most economical way possible. But I think, I think that Matt is a hundred percent correct in, you know, the, the boundaries that we put for ourselves, um, have everything to do with what we do on the front end, as far as the money disappears out of our account, you know, for the saving purposes before we ever really feel that we have it. And that's the same with the giving now, too, we have our donor, sorry, remind me what it's called. No, you need to use
Speaker 2 00:12:31 The official, you need to use the official titling of it. What did you call it?
Speaker 3 00:12:40 Oh, that's right. That's sufficient. That's sufficient. Yeah. So, you know, I honestly don't know that I've progressed that much for my college self where, you know, if the money's there, I want to be generous with myself and splurge. You are human. I think in a lot of ways and in a lot of areas in life, like the same strategy can hold true is that you've got to put those external guardrails up for yourself in order to help yourself do what you know you should be doing anyway.
Speaker 2 00:13:07 Yeah. It sounds like you've kind of removed the temptation out of the equation in a lot of ways, like buying a modest house was a big one and then getting the money out of sight out of mind. That's because a lot of times everybody in, maybe this is psychological or maybe it's just human nature, but a lot of people are like, well, I'll just see how things shake out with my finances. And then based on that, give, you know, or save. So that's kind of a spin first save, give after. But the problem is that allows so much more temptation then versus a it's going to happen. And I'm going to just get it out of my world where it's not even a cause we're all kind of like, I'm definitely pretty, I don't have great willpower. The only willpower I have has been mainly because I've forced a lot of these things to happen, which is good. I mean, that's what you kinda, but getting to the acknowledge, knowledging yourself at that level is big. It sounds like, I mean, you guys seem to have a good self-awareness of how that all works. Um, where does that come from? Cause I would consider you guys much more aware of like strengths and weaknesses temptations and just your, you guys, as you're aware of yourself in general, do you guys feel like you're that away or is that
Speaker 3 00:14:33 I'd like to think that's true? Um, I, can I tell the story? Oh, that's a good story. So when we were applying to residency, we went down to Memphis, Tennessee. Um, not together, we didn't know each other at the time, but, um, Memphis, Tennessee to interview at a program called resurrection health. And, um, it was a faith-based program and one of the leaders, um, in that organization always gave us a talk. Um, and he kind of traditionally gave the, the parable of the talents, um, talk. And basically you would go through the parable talking about some, some different points, but at the end of it, the overall thesis was you can interpret this parable and the nuances of it, you know, in a lot of different ways, but there's one thing that you're not going to ever be able to get past as a physician in America.
Speaker 3 00:15:39 And that is that you are a five-talent person. Like you can, you can interpret this all kinds of other ways that you want to and argue about this, that and the other, but at the end of the day, not one of you in this room applying to residency is not a five-talent person. And so from a biblical perspective, it was super challenging to just think about, you know, privilege in the sense not being, or being rather a gift from God, but at the same time coming with, uh, a responsibility, like what we do with that privilege is super important. And, um, I think that that's probably probably one of the watershed moments for me, um, realizing that and having that aha moment before I ever started residency that moving forward, whether it's finances or training or jobs or family or time, whatever it might be, um, we can't get past the fact that we're responsible for what we do with all those blessings.
Speaker 2 00:16:40 So for those that are not as familiar with the passage or five talents, can you explain like what that, a little bit more about that
Speaker 3 00:16:49 Variable that shows up in slightly different ways? Um, a couple of times in the gospels, um, basically the premise is that, um, Jesus is telling a story about what the kingdom of God could be compared to. And there's a master or, uh, I think they referred to him as a master who gives his servants, um, some amount of money. So to one servant, he gives one talent to another servant. He gives three talents, I think. And then to the other servant, he gives five talents and says, you know, go and, and be productive with this. And I, you know, I'll re I'll come back for, for my, for my returns when I come back from my trip. And so, um, one servant with the five talents goes out and makes five more and he gets rewarded by the master when he comes back. And when he got three talents, same thing makes three more and it's rewarded for his efforts.
Speaker 3 00:17:46 And then, but the one who had one talent, you know, just kind of buried it is, it was afraid. Was it worried? He's worried, he's worried and not courageous. Um, and so he sits on it and gives the one talent back to his master when he comes back and he does not get rewarded. He gets called I think, lazy and foolish or something like that. Um, having wicked call some names. Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, just the thought of, okay, like we have been given these facts or, you know, whatever the equivalent is, um, really acknowledging our lives. Like we're responsible for, for not just sitting on it, not just wandering it on ourselves. Um, yeah,
Speaker 2 00:18:28 Maybe that's what I was kinda in my head thinking about, uh, the word probably should be responsibilities. You guys seem to have respect for the responsibility aspect of, because in medicine you have, um, it's well compensated and that's generally, I guess, looked upon as a good thing, but it also comes with higher level of responsibility. Uh, also comes with more temptation potentially. Yeah, I
Speaker 4 00:18:58 Think all those things, there's two, two parts, uh, that we kind of just hit on. One is setting up boundaries, uh, and the other is the burden or feeling of responsibility to be wise with what you're given. And I think both of those are important, um, in painting the picture, but the, the, I'd say the third leg of this is that joy that comes with giving and being charitable. I think, you know, when we, when we talk in general terms about boundaries or fences or whatever it is that hymns you in, it seems like a, uh, it seems like a restricting kind of thing, but really it's liberating because you don't, uh, you don't have to worry about things and you get to see the joy of the fruits of your labor. And I, I think along with that, we felt very fortunate to be able to help some folks that are in some tougher ministry situations. And we find ourselves in currently here in our jobs, in the states
Speaker 2 00:20:12 And that's, that's where it really, I think, uh, there's the needle is when you can actually provide impact and help, you know, people is that how much of your giving is like, um, you know, people that, you know, versus institutions and large groups,
Speaker 3 00:20:32 The vast, I'd say the majority is people that we know probably over 90%,
Speaker 2 00:20:38 Which is unique. I think, I mean, a lot of people, I don't know if you looked at that charitable giving makeup of the country. I think I would think the vast majority is institutional, you know, like large, large organizations.
Speaker 3 00:20:53 Yeah. I think our perspective has always been much more community oriented. Like we really want to prosper the city and the place that we're in. And so even if we give institutionally, it tends to be the local charities where we can really know kind of more intimately who is benefiting from that and really wanting to be an advocate for people who have, or I guess a resource for people who have vision to improve, you know, here where we're at. Yeah. And I just, I have to like highlight what Matt just said. Cause I feel like that's such a good point. Like it is a liberating thing to be able to give and give really, you know, second Corinthians talks about God loving and cheerful giver and not a reluctant one. And it's so it's so true that like when, when you can know that it's not your money anyway, which sounds super cliche, but like there's so much anxiety that I treat in clinic with medications that has a lot to do with money. Like, um, it has plenty of other things too, but like, it really is one of those forces in our lives worry about money and be so devastating if you don't have somewhere to channel that and God to trust we're, you know, a framework to put that in. So anyway,
Speaker 2 00:22:12 And it's not, and you hit on a good point. It's not your money. I don't think we said it exactly that way yet, but that's, I think important that's a philosophy, I guess I would call it, you know, that's big time, mind shift a way of looking at it and helps
Speaker 3 00:22:30 Totally reflected in the way that Jesus tells that five talents, parable. And he specifically says, this is the master's money. He gives it to the servants. It's not theirs. It's not theirs to keep, but for those who do well with what they've been given the reward in the end of the parable is come and share in your master's. So, you know, it may not be ours to keep, but the joy of the master at the end of all of it in his gracious riches, like that is ours to keep, um, as we honor him,
Speaker 2 00:23:05 It's all, it's interesting to me to see kind of the, uh, the science, um, science doesn't always, uh, perfectly mesh with, with FAPE and Christianity and religion, and oftentimes it's in conflict. But, um, in this case with a race, there's been a lot of research on, uh, happiness and money. And I don't know if you guys have seen any of that, but it's gotten to be where the overwhelming consensus is that, um, best return on your dollar from a, you know, you can do whatever with it, but like spin, save or give is giving, uh, particularly in like things where you are directly involved in him where you can kind of add a little experience, kind of add into it as well. Um, has that, has that been your all's experiences? Like, it sounds like it is for what you're describing is that it's, you have had a lot of joy, I guess, is what that translates soup, uh, as a result of your giving.
Speaker 2 00:24:04 But I just want to kind of unpack that a little bit. Is that, is that a good assessment of that for you guys? Yeah, absolutely. Is it, is there any question, is it like no question and there was no question. Yeah. Cause I think when you're on, I have not always been, uh, I have improved in my personal giving over time and I see that with a lot of clients we work with in our planning firm. Uh, well, when I was, uh, not as, uh, charitable, it was a little hard for me to picture that actually playing out. I think it's hard to understand how that's even possible. That's I guess how our minds work sometime soon as you just kind of are like, that's not really how it is. Uh, but it totally is true. And, and it's so good to hear that. Um, and that's true in my case, as well as that it's completely the best possible thing you can do with your
Speaker 3 00:25:01 Money. Yeah. I think, I think you hit it on the head. Like it's, I think in some ways it's a muscle that has to be exercised, but the more that you exercise it, um, the more you understand the benefit and how it lends health to your perspective on the money, you still have, it lends health to your heart, um, in tempering, worry about your finances. It, it just lends to so many good benefits, not the least of which is the simple joy you get to experience and grow in as get to bless other people.
Speaker 4 00:25:36 I agree, uh, uh, being such a talented spender my whole life, I can assure all the listeners, uh, that the joy that comes that's fleeting with anything you purchase it pales in comparison to knowing like you can, you can change lives through being charitable. I don't really change lives by buying a nicer power tool, even though it's nice to have, or a nice bike or a car or whatever, like all those things may bring a fraction of joy, but it literally is a fraction when you talk to people that receive gifts.
Speaker 2 00:26:16 Yeah. When you buy stuff, it's kind of like self about me.
Speaker 3 00:26:21 Yeah. In a similar vein to maybe take it one step further. Like when I'm having a bad day at work, it is not the thought of coming home to X, Y, and Z physical comfort that gets me through, um, there's a lot of things that get me through, but it is much more inspiring to think, you know, I'm working hard at this job so that I've got money in the bank to give other people like, isn't even this isn't, you know, just for me. And so, yeah, there's a lot of levels to that. Can
Speaker 2 00:26:50 You share some of the, um, specific types of examples of what you're giving to, or some of the things that excite you the most? We
Speaker 3 00:26:57 Have a lot of friends on the mission field and I'd have to say the top of the list. And the thing that we give most to is, um, our missionary friends. I think we've got seven teams now, um, including one, um, that's not international here in, uh, the states. Um, but then the other six are either already abroad or in process of getting abroad. That's definitely the top of our list. And then for me, I think beyond that, um, next on the list would be like local food banks and homeless shelters. There's a ministry here in Louisville called Scarlet hope, um, that helps transition women who want to be free of the sex industry into jobs, um, that are not in the sex industry. And so, yeah, those are probably my top. You have anything to add?
Speaker 4 00:27:44 Uh, we have a neighbor that is starting a restaurant. He started a food truck and needed some funds and he did a go fund me and everything that, uh, we had an opportunity to, to help him out in a big way, uh, almost a year ago now. And it was in the middle of COVID and like, it was just crazy to think that this guy is going to be opening a restaurant at that time. And he opened, he had his opening weekend a week ago, you know, everybody loves it. And, uh, it's, it's fun to see from the outside because I feel like that was a real way to, to love a neighbor and deliver our neighborhood and to love our neighborhood because really, uh, it means barbecue for everybody
Speaker 3 00:28:31 Economically, like also bringing more business down this way and, you know, empowering, um, folks who maybe historically had been less advantaged economically to, you know, own their own business. Um,
Speaker 2 00:28:43 Yeah. So as you guys look into the future, um, what does giving look like? Do you feel like I've heard the word, um, you know, charitable giving is what people say a lot or giving or tithing or that kind of stuff. But I like to, I've heard people describe it as, um, sacrificial giving that's, that's the word I was going to bring up. What does that look like to you guys? Um, if you, if you look to the future,
Speaker 4 00:29:08 Uh, that is probably two two-pronged. One is we've discussed giving more as time goes on and not just stagnate at a certain level or whatever. And then two would be, um, giving of our time. Once we get the big picture, AKA debt, uh, figured out, we'll just have a lot more freedom with our time. Is that fair?
Speaker 3 00:29:35 Hmm. Yeah. Assuming we changed jobs. Yes.
Speaker 2 00:29:41 Cause right now, you know, working full time, that takes a lot of the time aspect. Cause you can give, you know, financial aid, you can also give your time,
Speaker 3 00:29:49 We've had conversations do about, you know, which is, which is better, which is not a fair like question really to ask. But you know, there's definitely been times when we've loved being able to give so much that we've considered, you know, what would it look like if we really did just stay in very well paying jobs and instead of trying to go on the mission fields ourselves, just fund it for as many other people as we possibly can because we do have jobs that would lend to that or at least a profession, it would. So, um, I think it's, I think it's worth exploring in every individual's context, what leveraging all of the resources the Lord has given you could look like, and that includes balancing time as well as money. And you know, the other things that the Lord has given you responsibility for pouring into in our case, we don't, you know, we don't have kids, um, currently, so, you know, our resources are even more free than some folks. And so there's a level of responsibility obviously with children and that sort of thing that you have to take in consideration with these things too, and not just the flippant.
Speaker 2 00:31:00 So if I'm in training, listening to this and I'm thinking like, you know, I resonate with that, but um, should I give before I have my paid off, I mean at this income is not very, I mean, it's, I have a hard time doing the things I want to do it, you know, there's so many things that I need to do before I start giving, but it is important. What would you say to that? Do you think it's a valid thing to, um, but offer a little bit, or is that, um, is that the wrong way of looking?
Speaker 3 00:31:31 We're staring at each other, trying to figure out who wants to address this?
Speaker 2 00:31:34 That's a dope and it depends on the person. I mean, you know, everybody has their own situation and
Speaker 4 00:31:40 So you could parse this out. Like I CA I could see somebody thinking, uh, I'm still in med school and unless you, one of those people that your parents are paying for it, you're probably like you at least have an awareness of your debt. And if you spend a dollar on a coffee today, when did coffee ever constant dollar, whatever. Okay, I'm sorry. When I spent $4 on my mocha latte today, it's going to be $20 in three years. So like, you could also say the same thing about your giving and, um, I think that's a dangerous road to go down. Um, and why it is such a personal thing. Like, uh, you know, you have a budget even when you're in med school and your loans, aren't exactly divvied out based on your expenses. So I would say, uh, if, if somebody feels led to give towards something that's important to do, um, I had, I had friends that were, you know, strict with their giving as far as, uh, the classical 10th of whatever loans they received and then other people who weren't. And I don't know. Did you ask for advice for these folks? Yeah, I totally forgot the question. I'm just kind
Speaker 2 00:32:56 Of talking now, basically what should you in training if you want to give, but you're like, there's too many different choices. I think, you know, if you, if it comes down to, what is your, I mean, what are you feeling is where, where are you feeling led and what's your, what's your, um, own situation? And I mean, you obviously are. I have a lot of control in that situation, but if giving is important or if you felt, feel like that is a something you want to do, um, I think it can be overwhelming to do it all at once. And so maybe in training, you just give a little bit, like, or start the, some sort of automatic thing in training, so you can get the muscle working. That's what I was kind of getting at. It's like, it's a muscle. You we've said that a few times. So it's like, you kind of got to start working out. If you're not in the gym at all, you're not going to get, you're not gonna, it's not going to grow, but it's hard and training, I think, did the gym, there's just not a lot of time and money or money.
Speaker 3 00:34:01 Yeah. There's, there's not a lot of resources in the training years. That's okay. But I kind of, I still think that in, for my own heart check, um, even in training, it was still kind of a matter of, um, do my, does my overall financial pattern match my match, my priorities or my, my values. And, you know, if, if giving is one of them, like it's, it's gotta be in the mix. Um, and I think that's, you know, an obedience issue for a lot of people. Now, that being said, we've also had friends who went through residency planning on getting to the mission field as soon as possible. Like they were wanting to be on the mission field with their families, actively doing work within, you know, two or three years at the latest of graduating resident. And I think that that is just one example of other ways that maybe not doing a whole lot of charitable giving does make sense.
Speaker 3 00:34:57 Like if you're, if you're really honestly lining up your checkbook's an old term, but you know what I mean? Um, with, with your, with your kingdom call or your, your values in life, then, you know, there, there are, there are reasons for that to be an approach also because, you know, they just they've worked their butts off for two years and spent every little dime they could on paying back debt and they got to the field, um, on their timeline and, um, that even that even required, some people probably to pour in resources into them, um, you know, as, as machinery is looking for funds from other people even. Um, and so I, yeah, I think there's, there's circumstances where you could say giving during residency or during training years during resource tight times, um, it should definitely be considered seriously. And if your financial picture doesn't line up with your values in every other area, like how much you spend on yourself or how much you spend on, you know, frivolous things, um, then yeah, giving should, should be, uh, a muscle to start exercising so that you don't fall into those patterns and an even worst way when you become an attending.
Speaker 3 00:36:11 And all of the sudden, literally overnight, you're suddenly making three or four times as much money as you had before, if those habits right. With, uh, with the small and in order to be prepared at all for the larger things to
Speaker 4 00:36:23 Come, oh yeah. If you're listening to this right now and you're still in training, uh, I can't, I can't put a bigger enough explanation mark, on what Ashley just said. I mean, you're gonna, you're gonna, your jaw is going to drop when you see your bank account. Like, and so the earlier you can talk to Daniel and get all your finances squirreled away and funneled into the right funnels. Uh, and the earlier you start working on that stuff now and thinking about it, it will pay off mostly for your soul, but also for your sanity and everything else on the flip side.
Speaker 2 00:37:00 Yeah. I think what Ashley said is huge is an even more important than, than, um, you know, the planning and the stuff that we do is your values and clarity on what's most important. And you guys have, uh, have good clarity. I think part of that is because you spent some time on it and you, you you're just clear on your values. I mean, that's, that's, that's an important kind of precursor to all this is having good value, clarity, and then, and then checking yourself a little bit because, um, we're all human at the end of the day. So you kinda get a little loosey goosey. Sometimes you get, um, kind of out of shape a little bit. And so, but at the end of the day, it's not about what's most important to you and understanding, you know, what that looks like, and the sooner the better for anyone, because once you know that, then you can like navigate well.
Speaker 2 00:37:56 So what happens is when you make those big transition points, like in the practice is a huge one, and you're not clear on what's most important, it's incredibly difficult, or maybe impossible to make all those big decisions like the house you all mentioned, you're going to have a hard time with it. You're going to be really prone to slipping up on it and going, you know, on the high end. And then all of a sudden you get kind of locked into that sort of setup and you can't do the, those other things that were most important, but you could have avoided that just by saying, you know, what's most important to me and being clear on that. And then you can do that at any point
Speaker 3 00:38:31 In your life. Absolutely.
Speaker 4 00:38:34 Yeah. Uh, I'm, I'm sitting here reflecting on all the decisions we made three years ago in the span of three months. I mean, we were, we were fortunate to talk through them, uh, at multiple points with you. Uh, but, uh, yeah, I think there was, there was so many decisions coming so quickly and they were all very big that you need to have the value sounding board to, to help steer you
Speaker 3 00:39:05 Well. And we were fortunate to have a community in residency that pattern that really well for us. And so anyone who's in training and completely immersed with people who don't have the same value system, I think you need to be extra careful because you're not the patterns that you're witnessing that you're going to be tempted to just fall into are maybe not the ones that really align with your values. And so explore that, like, if, if all of your co-residents are talking about, okay, as soon as that first paychecks, you know, were, are pre-approved for the $600,000 house and you know, we're going to shoot for it, whatever it might be. Like, just, just pause for a moment and see if there's anyone that, that patterns after your values better and try and figure out where some of those pitfalls might be. Because the pattern of this world is not, is not always is it's not going to align very well. It's easy to fall into.
Speaker 2 00:39:59 Yeah. They say you're, you're the average of your five best friends. Yep. That's what I've heard.
Speaker 4 00:40:05 I need to get more friends, but you have to have five friends, but I haven't hit that threshold.
Speaker 2 00:40:12 You've got five. Your dog doesn't count as one. Yeah. Nice. He's pretty big. Well, I've enjoyed talking to, I need to y'all are on vacation. So I, I really appreciate you taking the time and I want you to get back to vacationing, but any parting words for me, guys, this has been helpful to kind of see you all have been through it. And I think that's one of the best, uh, and you've done well with it. And I think that's a lot of people are going to benefit from just hearing that alone.
Speaker 3 00:40:43 I think my final thought, um, would be just to highlight something that we said earlier in psychological terms. It's very helpful when attempting to make changes to make the change itself feel and seem small. And so if you feel or see the need for change in the way that you're currently doing things or not doing things with giving, just start taking the small steps and start exercising that muscle, um, in the small ways. And, um, it will, it can definitely end up redirecting into bigger changer, but you gotta start. You gotta start small is where humility big change very easily.
Speaker 4 00:41:20 Yes. That's a really good thing. Small, small steps towards big goals. And then, um, I think, I think at the end of the day, if you get to the end of the road, the clarity at that moment would be was I, was I beholden to my spending or was I beholden to my giving? And that the closer you can move that needle towards the giving. I think the more rewarding of a life you'll you'll lead spiritually, emotionally all the way.
Speaker 2 00:41:54 That's good. We're going to close with that. I have nothing. That's that's all very good stuff, guys. I appreciate it. And have a great vacation. Thanks Daniel,
Speaker 1 00:42:07 As always. Thank you so much for joining us today. If you found this valuable, please give us a review on iTunes and share with a friend. Also check out our
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