Speaker 1 00:00:08 What's up, everyone. Welcome to the finance for physicians podcast. I'm your host, Daniel Raimi. Join me as we dig into what it looks like for physicians to begin using their finances as a tool to live better lives. You can learn more about our
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Speaker 1 00:00:26 Hello, everyone. Hope you're having a great day. I'm going to try to get through this without sounding too terrible. I've got this, uh, kind of respiratory or Jess cold kind of thing going on. So we'll see if we can make it through this today. I was open to talk about burnout and I know that's a big topic in general, um, in all professions, uh, and it's regularly, you know, it's, the percentages have increased and it's, it's a big issue, but especially in medicine, I think the burnout statistics are pretty concerning. And so today I wanted to focus in on really the financial aspect a little bit more. Um, I'll talk through, I think, I think your finances and particularly having a financial plan is one of the best tools at your disposal to combat burnout and puts you in a position to where that's not an issue.
Speaker 1 00:01:20 Uh, but I'm gonna, the goal is to talk through that and kind of give you some background and explain why I think that's the case. So we'll, uh, we'll jump into that and get started. Okay. So before I get into, uh, discussing burnout, I think it's good to start out, um, and clarify like what is good planning? So there's a lot of different areas of life. You can, you know, plan for, you know, you can plan for improving your health. You can have a business plan, you can plan out your vacation. Uh, you can plan like a really intense hike, you know, how to navigate the trail. Uh, you can plan a wedding that's, you know, in general you can plan, you can hire a life planner, you can plan out your life. And so finances are just one of those areas, you know, you can plan out your finances and, and that's just one of the, the tools at your disposal.
Speaker 1 00:02:20 So with good planning, um, I think the goal in all those areas, really, if we boil it down, the goal is to get you in this ideal life that we all kind of have in the back of our heads. So most people, not everybody, but you know, most people probably are living like your life today is probably, you know, not ideal in some way. And so if you think of that as like, you know, a, a, you know, draw a circle over here on the right side, that's your life today, and then draw a circle over here on the left side, and that's like your ideal life. And so I think the goal of pretty much all good planning is to get those things, to overlap for your life, or I guess, for an event or whatever you're planning for. And, you know, it takes the plan, the process of going through all that is, you know, it's hard work and, you know, there's a lot of steps and, you know, you want to iron out all that, but, uh, you know, the end result should be that ideal life.
Speaker 1 00:03:25 So just to clarify, like the ideal life, I think should be in alignment with your values, it should give you freedom and opportunity and confidence and, and, and feel efficient and all those things. And, you know, that's, that's where most people want to go. I think everybody really wants to go that direction and, and good planning is should, should be pulling you that way. And that's not always the solution, there's sometimes other issues, but it can be a great tool. And that is typically the goal of good planning, uh, on the flip side, if you are not doing any planning, if you're just kind of living life or just going off the cuff with, with all these kinds of things, you know, that's kind of where you get into this meandering, uh, situation and the there's all these like, uh, pulls on your influences around you and cultural poles and kind of the world, and in general is going to pull your direction.
Speaker 1 00:04:23 And then, you know, maybe just kind of things come up and, you know, that's where you're susceptible to like shiny objects temptation, you know, you can get an easily get in this position of uncertainty and fear and having no clear direction and, and inefficiency and, and in life. So, um, you know, that's kind of where you're, you know, just meandering. So ideally we move away from that and move towards that more ideal life where you have strong direction, you're on a, on a good track. So like I said, you can, you can play in a lot of different areas of your life is a very valuable if done, right? It's a very valuable, um, potentially life-changing process. But the key is, you know, working through that process. So financial planning, we're gonna focus on a little bit more. That's kind of where we, we start to, we kind of zero in on the money part of your life.
Speaker 1 00:05:19 And, and that's the, the big focus of, you know, and, and money is a big deal. Money is a huge, can have a huge effect. Typically does have a huge effect on how life turns out. So it's definitely a big area of planning. So you can check out, we've talked about financial planning, a lot on this podcast. You can talk, uh, check out some of the prior episodes we've done. Uh, the vitals check kind of give you, we'll give you an idea of like the, uh, foundational starting points to work on, to start your financial planning. And then we, we talk about the overall process. I'll link to these episodes in the show notes, but, uh, getting into burnout. So burnout, I think for many people, burnout is kind of a good example of, you know, my life today, uh, or maybe you're kind of heading that direction, or you have some symptoms of burnout.
Speaker 1 00:06:12 Maybe you're not completely, you know, out on your work, but you you're moving that direction. So for many people, you know, your life today is showing signs of burnout. And so ideally in your, you know, ideal life, that's not an issue. So with financial planning to clarify it, sometimes people associated with wealth and investments and more money and that kind of thing. That's not what it is. That's not good financial planning. Now I can be a part of it. Uh, it's not about getting rich though. It's about pulling you towards that ideal life. And so if we're using those definitions, financial planning is fantastic. Uh, you know, a fantastic tool to help combat burnout or really any other issue you're potentially dealing with in life. So I'll talk more about that in a, in a minute, but, uh, we have lots of, uh, you know, I guess there's lots of known causes of burnout.
Speaker 1 00:07:11 So I want to talk through those first and then we'll circle back to the financial part. The white coat investor had an article a while back. He broke down. I think he, he boiled it down pretty well as far as like the main categories of causes. Uh, so we'll link to that in the show notes, but anyway, the first big cause, um, or category of causes for burnout is like your job related issues. You know, you just got a crappy job or the job something related to your specific job is the cost. So that could be typically that shows maybe it's not terrible, but it has, it's, it's one of the main issues. So with a lot of physicians these days, uh, they they're employed. You guys, a lot of you are employed by hospitals or big organizations. And so there tends to be this like hyper production focus, see more patients, bill more, you know, more RV use, every everybody's happy when there's more RBU's and that translates to more powers.
Speaker 1 00:08:18 And there's just so, especially with the administration, like a lot of the people leading these organizations are hyper-focused on that and they don't understand. They definitely don't understand what it's like to be a physician, obviously like you guys do. And so on top of that, they have these incentives to where they don't really care. I mean, they care most about the financial aspect of making the company productive. And so they're not really thinking about taking the best care of the patient, which is what you guys are thinking about. And so that in itself is it can be a huge conflict that you deal with and, and in jobs. And so that, so crap, you know, having a, uh, you know, bad job or just general job stresses can be a big category of, cause for burnout. The second big category is like just overall professional stress, so associated with what you do for a living.
Speaker 1 00:09:21 And so this, you know, this is gonna be hard to get away from if you like go to the place next door or whatever, but, um, you know, in medicine, for instance, you know, it's challenging profession. I mean, there's a lot of, lot of, um, you know, you, you guys see a lot of, uh, challenging situations. Um, you're dealing with lives it's hugely important, but it can also be, you know, massively stressful. I don't even know what it's like to have to deal with the, the loss of life and that kind of thing. I'm sure that's massively stressful. And then on, on top of it all, like with lately with COVID, I mean, that's just amped up all this stress related to the profession and with staffing and that kind of thing. That's makes it kind of compounds at all. Um, you know, with the shortage of, especially like nurses and that kind of thing, there's this, you know, there's always going to be this professional stress, uh, and you know, and even on top of that, there's some kind of like professional stress that, you know, is part of like the culture of medicine.
Speaker 1 00:10:20 This is not everyone, but there is kind of a general pull towards perfectionism and like you, uh, and, and, and, and lack of emotion and, and, um, and strengthen that can, can really add up to causing stress. And so that's, that's kind of the professional stress aspect. And so that can be, can be a little harder to get away from. We'll talk more about it, but, but it is a thing. And every, you know, everybody has it and every profession has different stressors. Uh, those are just some of those that exist in medicine. Uh, and then the third big category of causes for burnout is, is just overall personal health or personal issues. And so this is so the first two were like kind of external or systemic type, uh, uh, factors. And now you have control on those first two, like you can change profession or you can change jobs or whatever, but, but those, those first two, the, the job stressors and the professional stressors, you don't have direct control.
Speaker 1 00:11:30 So it's hard to, or impossible sometimes to like fix the underlying issues. And that doesn't mean you can't like go to a different profession or a different job, uh, but it is much more difficult or impossible to, uh, fix it directly because it's, it is a system now this third issue, this is more you. And so everybody has their issues. We're none of us are perfect. And so sometimes in like our culture now, and I think in medicine, definitely having similar challenges is mental health is like, you know, a lot of people argue it's a at its worst point right now in, in the United States. Uh, and so there's depression is super common. It's all over the place. And I think in medicine, there's a work kind of workaholic type work, more hours is better mentality, which can compound these sorts of things. And, you know, mental health is a big deal.
Speaker 1 00:12:35 Also physical health is a big deal. Uh, those kinds of things can, you know, amplify, uh, already present issues and make everything even worse. And so that's more of the internal factors. Also, I guess you can wrap in financial issues into those personal issues. And so we'll talk about that a little bit more in depth, but you know, anything you have, so these kinds of things you have direct control over, not that you can like fix them, always like, you know, sometimes for example, like mental health, you can't, sometimes it just is a thing that you have to, to work through. And so now there's ways you can be more proactive about it. Like, uh, we had, uh, several episodes back. We had, uh, one of my buddies on here and we talked through his vulnerability and his, uh, his experience being bipolar and medicine and, and getting to a point where he's able to share that.
Speaker 1 00:13:37 And so, and, and also get more help. Uh, so there's definitely ways to work through that and, and provide better outcomes, but you know, some different, depending on situations, some of these are more in your control. Others are not so money. So I mentioned money, is that in that third category of personal issues that we often deal with. So when you money seems to always have this like way of amplifying things, either for the better, or for the worse, especially like the more of it you throw into the mix. So money is definitely a huge can have a huge effect on all of this stuff. So for example, you know, a lot of, a lot of you guys in, in medicine, you're starting out, um, you know, right out of training with big, you know, a big student loan, maybe you hold 300,000 in student loans and you're negative.
Speaker 1 00:14:35 Your net worth is negative, and you're kind of starting a little later than your peers. And maybe you make the decision to buy a house, cause you're going to be working in this job for a longer time. And so you have that debt on, on top of it, but all those things, I mean, that's part of it is like part, part of it is, is a result of the career choice. But, um, the more of that you have, it makes you reliant on your job. Like you basically become like job dependent or completely dependent on your work. In other words, you gotta work to make the money to pay the bills. You know, you're maybe you're a hundred percent reliable reliant on it. And so that in itself is a pretty stressful or inflexible, I guess, financial position. On the other hand, you might have like very solid finances, have your ducks in a row, you have wealth, adequate wealth, you have all your bases covered your, and maybe you're completely independent from having to work.
Speaker 1 00:15:44 Like you're not at all dependent on your job to, to pay bills and live and that kind of thing. And, um, you know, that's the completely opposite end of the spectrum. And so what that gives you is real, you know, really, like I said, independence and flexibility and, and, and that sort of thing. So with financial planning, uh, you know, like I mentioned, financial planning, like any good planning is going to help. It's really the process of helping you chart the course and start taking steps towards living out your ideal life. And so with, with money, it's not always cut and dry. I mean, there's, there's a lot of, uh, personal aspects and, and personal issues that you and I deal with. And maybe your issues are going to be different than ours, but the process should always be the same. And so maybe you're in a, so going back to the, um, burnout causes, so maybe you're in a job that's causing all kinds of stress.
Speaker 1 00:16:54 Like you're just production is all you hear and, or whatever reason it might be, you just are extremely stressed in the job that you're in. And you're not confident about your overall financial picture. So what that does is it's limits your options, or maybe you have no options. You feel reliant, you must, you got to keep the job. You got to keep the checks coming in and it becomes much more difficult to make any changes. And you, it amplifies it for the worse in that situation. On the other hand, if you have a solid, confident financial plan, like you're going to put yourself in a position to maybe today, but either, you know, at the worst, be working towards being in a position to be able to negotiate on your terms, a better setup or leave and not be so financially stressed that it's going to blow up your finances or maybe start a business and like do your own thing, but having a good financial plan, those are the results like financial planning is on the surface.
Speaker 1 00:18:03 It's like, you know, whatever, it's kind of, it sounds kind of cool, I guess, but, um, really that is what the end results are, is like putting you in that position to be able to do those kinds of things. And that's where, that's why, you know, I'm saying it's a fantastic tool for combating burnout is if you're in that situation, it opens up lots more options. Like you start to, you know, feel better about making ch uh, changing the course. I mean, you might even have good financial, you know, a good overall financial situation, or maybe you have wealth, plenty of wealth, but a lot of times people just are paralyzed or they're just unsure. And they're like, I don't know if that's going to hurt my retirement or whatever. And you feel paralyzed to make a change in a job that sucks. So having a good plan, financial plan will help give you that confidence to be like, it's not worth it.
Speaker 1 00:19:03 I have, I'll be fine financially. We've already worked through that scenario and I'm going to do something about this now, either negotiate or, you know, make a change of some sort of leave or start your own business or whatever direction you take it to get out of that, you know, job stress situation, and ideally use sooner, the better a job is one of those things. It's like, I'm sure you've heard them. People talk about like, the, everybody always says like a, when they spend a lot of money on a mattress, they're like, oh yeah, well, I spent a lot of money on a mattress, but I spend like, you know, I don't know a third of my life on it, or six years, 10, no, like 20 years. I don't know a ton of time on, on my mattress. Uh, and so, uh, same goes true.
Speaker 1 00:19:48 I think for your job, you're going to spend a ton of time in your job. So I don't think it's worth it to be in a job that sucks. Like it's just not worth it. There's, there's plenty of jobs that people are happy in. And so if finances are restricting you, which they often do, that's an issue you can work through. And financial planning is that process of getting you in that better position and then professional stress. So professional stress is a L is it similar to this, uh, job stress, but, um, and you know, it's a little different, maybe your, you know, cause that can be a bigger change. So, you know, same, same situation. Maybe you're just not confident about your overall financial picture. And you're like, ah, I'm not sure what I can do. I got to S I have student loans, uh, that I have to pay off.
Speaker 1 00:20:38 So, and I need to earn the income that they pay and in my profession. And so I need to stick it out and, um, work through this or you're, you're just unsure. You're you don't feel like that would be a, you're not confident in making a change on this sort of stress because of your you're. You're just not sure about your financial picture on the other hand. I mean, if you have a, if this is causing major stress, your profession, ideally you have a confident plan in place financial aid that can help to solve this. Maybe you're changing professions completely, which is, you know, happens a lot. Uh, and that's, that's, that's ideal. That's your ideal life. That's great. You want to move towards that or maybe your changing kind of a flavor of your profession, like kind of going a little bit of a different direction.
Speaker 1 00:21:31 That's going to help reduce that stress or maybe your taking a lot more breaks. Uh, this can actually work on the first stressor as well, but like having the money to take more breaks or in other words, work less is huge for combating this sort of stress. A lot of times, you know, people are so reliant on their job or their income from their job. Um, and maybe even the overtime or extra shifts from their job or another job that they feel like they can't take a break at all. And so that paired with stress in the profession and, or the job is basically like a problem recipe for disaster. It's gonna continue to restrict and eventually blow up. And so ideally you have that plan competent plan to kind of move you away from that. I'll link to some podcasts. I think my favorite example, uh, I had some of my friends on, and we talked about their break away from a traditional primary care, uh, to start a concierge medical practice.
Speaker 1 00:22:42 And I think their story is an excellent example of breaking away from like a crappy job that was for them that was causing them a lot of stress. It was a little bit of a profession change. I mean, they're still kind of in the same general profession, but like the way they do it is so different that I almost call it like a professional change as well. So I'll link to that. That's a great example of someone that had the confidence to make the change and the finances, the plan behind that, all help to compliment it. And then your personal health, you know, without confidence in your overall finances and when you're tight or unsure, you're going to be hesitant to go seek, help or pay for help, or you're going to be worried that it might affect your job if you go seek help.
Speaker 1 00:23:35 So maybe you have a mental health issue. We all have mental health issues really at the end of the day, like maybe you're you need to work on some stuff or go seek help. That is going to be difficult when your worried about potentially losing a job or potentially having to pay for really good help when the finances are uncertain, it become it amplifies, or it makes it much more difficult to solve those sorts of issues. And you, when you don't solve those issues, in this example, you tend to gravitate to like bury the head in the sand because it's like, I'm not gonna, I'm just gonna work through this or not pay attention to it and just it'll go away. But it doesn't, and it can, it'll get, it'll get compounded because, you know, that's just something you got to work on on the other end, if you have a good, solid, confident plan, I think it helps to be able to admit things.
Speaker 1 00:24:35 And when you're less worried about, you know, having a job change or loss, or you're less worried about having to go seek help and, or take a break, uh, to, to go do some self care, like when you're less worried about paying a good amount for solid help, because your financial picture is solid and you have a good plan, then that's going to put you in a much better position to go work on these sorts of issues and put you in a better position or a it's gonna help you combat burnout, because that is, you know, that's definitely a cause. Um, and when you work on them, work in them, it's going to help. Maybe it's even like your, uh, physical health. You know, if you're not taking care of yourself, you know, eating junk and not working out like that's going to make can't can make things worse, will make eventually things worse.
Speaker 1 00:25:30 And it takes time and confidence and, uh, money often to go work on that kind of thing, you know, go find a personal trainer and Pam, you know, of fair, you know, Pam a good amount and they're going to help you or dietician or whatever. I mean, that kind of thing is worthwhile potentially life-changing and can help move you the other direction. So I all linked, I also have covered these sorts of issues, some of the personal challenges and issues, and several other podcasts from the past I'll link to those. We talked perfectionism and, and physician suicide and vulnerability and those sorts of topics. I have a few that I think would be great to if you want to kind of dig into this. Um, but I think so if we're summing all this up, I think money is or should be ideally viewed as a tool.
Speaker 1 00:26:28 It's an, it's an excellent tool. I mean, that's, it's a tool to get you to, to help you make progress and put things together and work in the right direction, uh, when use right. And so good financial planning is the process of using that tool to propel you or project you towards living that ideal life. And I think when done right burnout is just one of the many examples of things that you'll be less prone to, or can fight against as a result of that process. So you can completely do financial planning on your own. I'm a financial planner. So I like make a living, helping people do this. But like, I know all of you all have like the capability of doing this yourself. Like if you have gotten through medical school, for example, I mean, you can completely do personal, do your financial planning on your own.
Speaker 1 00:27:29 Now a lot of you will decide to, to hire help and that's okay too. It's okay to get help and different people prefer different routes. We're happy to help if you need help with this kind of a thing and feel free to reach out anytime with questions. But I think the main thing though, whether you do yourself or hire help, is that you are working through that process and using it the right way to help kind of propel you in that ideal life scenario. I hope this is all been helpful. And, um, I will, uh, look forward to catching up again next time. And we'll talk to him as always, thank you so much for joining us today. If you found this valuable, please give us a review on iTunes and share with a friend. Also check out our
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Speaker 1 00:28:18 See you next time. Finance for positions is not an investment tax legal or financial advisor. All content included in this podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be considered financial tax or legal advice. Material presented is believed to be from reliable sources and no representations are made by finance for physicians as to another party, informational accuracy or completeness, all information or ideas provided should be discussed in detail with an advisor accountant or legal counsel prior to implementation. You don't have an advisor or like a second opinion. Feel free to check out our website for recommended advisors.
