Episode Transcript
Daniel Wrenne: What's up guys? Have you ever sat and thought for a moment. What are the skills that I'm missing? Or what do I wanna work on? What areas of growth do I wanna focus on? As I'm recording this, it's early in the year and that's a common time when people think about those sorts of things.
Daniel Wrenne: What do I wanna do this year? So today we're gonna be talking about some opportunities for growth within the medical world. And as physicians, the training is unique in that it's very hyper-focused on educational content around becoming a great physician, but inevitably there's stuff that's missing there.
Daniel Wrenne: And so on top of that, you got the healthcare system, which is just really messed up. I mean, there's a lot of problems with it. And so we're gonna be zeroing in on some of the most impactful life skills that oftentimes are missing in your traditional training, but they can really make a really big difference in improving your life.
Daniel Wrenne: So to discuss this topic, I have brought in buddy of mine, Dr. Jimmy Turner. He is a practicing anesthesiologist. He's an entrepreneur. He's a life coach for physicians. He's like myself, a self-proclaimed money nerd. He is the host of the Physician Philosopher Podcast and the Money Meets Medicine Podcast which if you haven't checked those out, I'd definitely recommend those.
Daniel Wrenne: On top of all that, he's able to balance in being a husband and a father to three kiddos. So he is got a lot going on. But as you'll hear from our conversation, he has a really good handle on some of these things that are not in the traditional skillset. And so we're gonna be talking more specifically about what you can learn from entrepreneurship.
Daniel Wrenne: We'll talk about the importance of getting out of this autopilot mode we all get into and doing some deeper thinking around what's most important and what's my purpose. And how am I gonna align my actions with that. We'll talk about several areas of cognitive psychology and why it's so important to understand what this is and really when it's happening and that having that awareness of it.
Daniel Wrenne: We'll talk about the importance of asking for help or hiring people to help you. And then Jimmy has a really interesting stat around online courses that was really surprising to me that I think you'll be interested to hear. And I think should be in the back of your mind as you consider self-development. And on top of all that, we're gonna talk about boundaries. And I think that's one of the most important things is learning to say no and establishing these boundaries as life gets hectic.
Daniel Wrenne: So we had a great conversation. I enjoy talking about this type of topic, and we can go on and on and on. There's a lot within it. But I enjoyed it. I'm confident you're gonna enjoy it as well. And so without further ado, let's jump into our conversation.
Daniel Wrenne: Jimmy, what's up? Thanks for coming on today.
Dr. Jimmy Turner: Hey Daniel. Thanks for having me, couldn't be more excited to be here.
Daniel Wrenne: Yeah, we were just talking before we hit record a lot of the stuff we're doing has a lot of overlap. So there's all kinds of stuff I'm excited to talk about. Really, I think we could talk for hours and hours. Jimmy's a fellow money geek and that's always exciting for me.
Daniel Wrenne: Now, I don't wanna bore you guys too much with all that sort of stuff. So there's all kinds of stuff we can talk about. What I'm most excited to talk about is this challenge in the physician circles of working inside this broken medical system. And you've even taken the initiative to write a book about it and have broken down how doctors can thrive in the broken medical system.
Daniel Wrenne: And actually that's the title. It's determined how doctors can thrive in this broken medical system. And so I'm excited to zero in on that topic because it's such a big, huge topic and it's like you work a lot, you spend a lot of hours in your work, and if it's broken that's gonna seep into all these other areas of life.
Daniel Wrenne: It reminds me of like, I always bring this up, it's maybe not the best comparison, but it's the mattress analogy. Like, people say, you spend eight hours a night on your mattress, you better make sure it's a good solid mattress. Same sort of thing with your work. if you're in a kind of a challenging system, you want to ideally solve that problem quickly.
Daniel Wrenne: So I'm excited to talk about that. Maybe before we jump into that, I would love it if you could break down how you got where you are because you're a physician, but you're also doing all these other things, which kind of fall into the category of your book. Like you're helping solve the problem.
Dr. Jimmy Turner: Yeah, it's an interesting journey if I take you all the way back. But maybe I'll start big picture and then kind of whitt things down a little bit. So my journey was, I did all my training at Wake Forest and ended up going into anesthesiology, do regional anesthesia. Now during my fellowship I kind of picked up an interest in personal finance. And so big picture I went from fellow and regional anesthesia to an acute pain regional attending here at Wake.
Dr. Jimmy Turner: And then six months later, after my fellowship I started a blog. It was on personal finance. And I always kind of melded those two ideas. Personal finance, so financial independence and wellness from the very beginning. And so in the beginning it was kind of a you know, you fight burnout with financial independence and that was actually one of the taglines of my website early on, was fighting burnout with financial independence.
Dr. Jimmy Turner: And so the reason for that was because I recognized that the reason people stay in a job that they don't like is 'cuz they can't financially afford to leave. And so I put those two things together very early, November of 2017. And so the interesting part is that, and this is you know, so many things.
Dr. Jimmy Turner: I mean, this really could be like a four hour podcast, by the way. But yeah, so basically short version of the story, I went to get disability insurance as a third year medical student. When I had our first kid. I was actually in term life insurance, but the insurance agent talked me into applying for disability insurance.
Dr. Jimmy Turner: I have an essential trimmer. I take propranolol for it. I was going into procedural specialty. I got denied. So when I got to training and they had the guaranteed standard issue policy, I could have gotten that. But the only stipulation was that it couldn't have been denied before. Because of that, to this day, I am a practicing anesthesiologist and I do not have disability insurance in terms of you know, private disability insurance policy.
Dr. Jimmy Turner: So I very much became interested in personal finance, later. Realized that the financial industry wasn't my friend at the time. So I started learning a ton about this stuff. And I was like, "Oh, great! Well, you know, these doctors, they're really struggling with burnout and I've learned a ton about money, so I wanna teach them a ton about money. And then maybe if they can use this knowledge to create financial independence, they could work as much or as little as they wanted."
Dr. Jimmy Turner: And so I, I went that journey for a while. And the interesting thing was is that, I started burning out too. So I had a couple of career situations happen. I had a couple of positions pass me by, four times, not once. Four times. And so I was like, Hey, like, "I'm just not gonna find my purpose, my meaning my, you know, I don't know, accomplishment that I'm looking for inside of medicine."
Dr. Jimmy Turner: And so I transitioned that into my business. And I traded, in the end. I traded physician burnout for entrepreneurship burnout. But when I first started getting burned out in medicine, I was like, you know what? I'm gonna do what I teach everyone else to do, which is to create financial independence so that I can pull back from medicine.
Dr. Jimmy Turner: And so that's why I went into my business even more and then later experienced the burnout from the entrepreneurship side. But, my journey was basically from trainee who got burnt by the insurance industry, learned about money, got burned out myself, tried to use money as solution to that, and it didn't end up working. So I transitioned into coaching later and now I'll kind of do both.
Daniel Wrenne: Yeah, there's a whole bunch in there.
Dr. Jimmy Turner: Four hour podcast.
Daniel Wrenne: Minimum four hours. Like there's a bunch of little, few words but huge topics in themselves.
Daniel Wrenne: I think a few of 'em that really stick out to me, I think that are important to talk about is this idea of the pursuit of money/financial in independence or whatever you wanna call it. Like the pursuit of money as the solution. It's common, everybody does it. I've done it before. The culture is completely all on board with that idea.
Daniel Wrenne: Is that like, let's go hardcore pursue money as the solution to the problem. And it sounds like that's kind of where you started, right?
Dr. Jimmy Turner: Yeah, it is. And so in psychology, cause I geek out on psychological literature, books, stuff like that, this is called an Arrival fallacy. So Tal Ben-Shahar, he's a Harvard trained psychologist, came up with this idea, right?
Dr. Jimmy Turner: And so money ended up being like the penultimate arrival fallacy for me. I got burned out. I was like, I'm gonna delve, jump both feet into my business. Created a $600,000 business. Had enough financial independence from that to step away from medicine if I wanted to do that full-time.
Dr. Jimmy Turner: And then I wasn't any happier than I was when I was burned out. And so it turned out, Oh, this financial independence and working two days a week in medicine instead of five, which is what I'd gotten down to, wasn't the answer. In fact, I ended up back on antidepressants because I lost my purpose.
Dr. Jimmy Turner: And so it's an interesting thing that when you don't have something and you look up to that mountain, you're like, Wow when I climb this mountain and when I get there, that's when I'm gonna be happy." Until you crest the mountain and you find out, oh I'm actually not any happier than I was, which is what money ended up being for me.
Daniel Wrenne: Yeah, I think that's extremely common, especially it seems like it's amplified in the medical training just the way it works. It's like there's all this buildup and it's almost like pain. And you can kind of justify the pain because of this future buildup and a lot of it ties to making a bunch of money in the future.
Daniel Wrenne: So I've heard many people be like, all those things will be fine once I go into practice. And I think they quickly realize it doesn't change anything.
Dr. Jimmy Turner: Well, and it's little devastating, right? Because all through training, you finish college and you're like, okay, medical school's next step.
Dr. Jimmy Turner: Focus on that for the next four years, okay? Medical school's done. I'm focusing on residency for the next three to five years. Okay, that's done. I'm focusing on my fellowship for the next one to three years. Oh, that's done. I'm gonna focus on becoming a partner for the next one to three years. And then all of a sudden, when you've done all of those things, you've kicked the can down the road.
Dr. Jimmy Turner: Like this is when the happiness is gonna happen. This is when the happiness is gonna happen. And you went through all of this stuff, saw these terrible things, got PTSD from the healthcare system and all the horrific human terror that happens in it. And you get to the end and you're like, "Wow, man, I kicked this can down the road for 14 years and I'm not happy."
Dr. Jimmy Turner: Like that is devastating. That is like the penultimate arrival fallacy. And so when you get there and you realize, like Gertrude Stein said that there is no there there. It is life altering. And then all of a sudden you're dealing with this problem that you didn't even know you'd have 'cuz you expected that giant pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. And unicorns and happiness and it just doesn't turn out that way for a lot of people.
Daniel Wrenne: Yeah. I've Like I said, I've had conversations with people many, many times. And conversations on the podcast where we talked to people, I think of one recently, hollow Sare was talking about her transition into practice, and she was like her idea was that money was gonna buy happiness. And then she quickly realized it just made her more of the same person she already was, which was really interesting to me. It's kind of a different way of saying this all, it's like it amplifies who you are already. And she was like, I don't wanna be that person. So then it was like, I gotta do the hard work to change.
Daniel Wrenne: So that's the challenge. It's hard work to change. And a lot of people, it's not on their radar, I don't think. They're just rolling with the flow, doing the thing.
Dr. Jimmy Turner: I'm a big fan of Dr. Sare. She's a good friend of mine. But I completely agree. And it is hard work. And I think that what happens is people get put on autopilot. It's just so easy in medicine to say this is the next step. Liners on, I'm just gonna tackle that one thing. Until you finish that journey. And then there is no autopilot. You actually have to make intentional decisions about where you want to go, otherwise you take the same journey that every other doctor does and end up in the same exact place.
Dr. Jimmy Turner: And then you have this very common narrative. It's only when you get to the point that Hollow was describing there with you, where you're like, "Oh, wow, I don't want to be like this anymore. I need to make a change." And then you're forced to make an intentional decision but until things get off autopilot, it's just like this just trajectory for misery for a lot of people.
Daniel Wrenne: Yeah. Whether it's in training or even in entrepreneurship, like you were talking about, when you're committed so much to one area of life, for example you're working 80 hours a week. It's almost like there's no capacity to be able to get off auto autopilot.
Daniel Wrenne: It's almost like you live in autopilot when you're doing that.
Dr. Jimmy Turner: Yeah, a hundred percent. I completely agree.
Daniel Wrenne: And that's a dangerous spot to be. Yep. So you made the shift and I see a lot of people making the shift and it's exciting to make the shift, but it sounds like your story was a little bit like mine.
Daniel Wrenne: I have had to learn through some mistakes and failures and running into brick walls. And sometimes that's the way you gotta learn. Failing Forward is one of my favorite books from John Maxwell back in the day.
Dr. Jimmy Turner: Yep, yep.
Daniel Wrenne: But it sounds like that's been your experience too, eh?
Dr. Jimmy Turner: Yeah, no, totally. I've got all sorts of the obstacle isn't in the way, the obstacle is the way. You can't know success if you don't know failure. I mean, you have to have that kind of mindset. And interestingly, medicine never taught that to me. I think that that's a fundamental skill you have to have in life. And medicine taught me, you just have to succeed. Like you just gotta keep pushing until you get what you came to get. And so it's this like it's an unacceptance of failure. whereas what taught that to me actually..
Daniel Wrenne: Perfectionism?
Dr. Jimmy Turner: Yeah. Oh yeah. Perfectionism is bad. And it's rampant in medicine.
Dr. Jimmy Turner: And so entrepreneurship is what taught me how to fail forward. And forced me to do that, to be honest. Because what I did, and I talk about this in my book and determined, I overgeneralized things. So like I am by nature or I guess I should say now I'm a recovering perfectionist.
Dr. Jimmy Turner: And so when I would make a mistake and I tell a story in the book about putting a central line in a patient for the first time ever. I'm in training to become an anesthesiologist. I'm an anesthesia resident. And during this period, I'm an intern and during the story. And I built this central line up to build, be like, you know, one of the penultimate, like just big procedures that every good anesthesiologist has to be able to do in 14 seconds.
Dr. Jimmy Turner: And so I stayed late after my shift after midnight when I was in emergency room, intern, on that rotation. And I tried to put my first central line in. I completely botched it. The patient had a supra-therapeutic on her INR so she bled everywhere. And I pulled everything out together. Like I dilated and then pulled it all out at the same time.
Dr. Jimmy Turner: And so all that to say, I made a really big hole and a very large vessel. And a patient had very thin blood. And my upper level looked at me and she's like, "Well, you'll never do that again." And so she's like, "Hold pressure. I'll put my gown on." And so, I stayed two hours after the shift to do this procedure that I just completely botched.
Dr. Jimmy Turner: And then I stayed up for 3-4 hours after that shift when I got home. Like basically perseverating on how bad of a doctor I was gonna be because I had made a mistake. And like that may sound like really, really strange and like, "Wow, that's a bit much Jimmy. "But I cannot tell you how common overgeneralization is because I had one bad thing happen and I overgeneralized that one procedure that I should have been learning from as a trainee into I am a terrible doctor and I'm always going to be a terrible doctor.
Dr. Jimmy Turner: And perseverated on it for quite some time. And so that perfectionism is rampant in medicine. Like when you have a bad patient outcome, you get your first medical malpractice case in terms of being named in a lawsuit. Or you get a bad patient online review. Doctors take those things and then overgeneralize them to, "I'm not good at what I do."
Dr. Jimmy Turner: And no one really gives you the skillset in medicine to say.. Actually, there's another way you can frame this. You don't need to do that to yourself. You can be compassionate. And so I didn't learn that until I became an entrepreneur. 'Cuz entrepreneurship, if you don't adopt that mindset, you will not succeed.
Dr. Jimmy Turner: It's just part of the entrepreneurial way. And in medicine that's not the case.
Daniel Wrenne: It's like the foundation almost. I remember when I started, I kind of started in the entrepreneurial world a lot sooner. Like right outta undergrad. And one of the first, I always talk about Jim Roan, he's one of my favorite speaker authors.
Daniel Wrenne: But I just soaked up all of his stuff for hours and hours and hours. And a lot of it was around this kind of stuff we're talking about is the philosophy around how to be an entrepreneur. And was so helpful to experience that because I have a perfectionist lean, like a lot of us. And also the whole "I'm not good enough" thing and it's so easy to get in that cycle. But like medicine just like you said, doesn't really teach that. And there's so many people that end up in that cycle like you were. And what's the issue? 'Cuz that's not, I mean I wish it was, it might be a solution to teach it, but what's going wrong here?
Daniel Wrenne: Is it just ' cuz I can see where the argument, if I'm in the medical culture is like, We really we're talking about people's lives. It's easy to be like what has to, I mean you gotta do the best possible for the patient 'cuz we're talking about lives. But how do we start to turn the corner on that?
Dr. Jimmy Turner: Yeah. So I mean, whether medicine likes it or not soft sciences, which I think is an offensive term, but that's what they're called are a thing. And there's evidence. And there's data. And just like there is for quote unquote "hard sciences", which is hilarious 'cuz they're no more true than soft sciences.
Dr. Jimmy Turner: But like cognitive distortions and teaching about psychology should happen both during training in terms of like day-to-day care. Like when you're supervising resident, fellow attending physician is working with you. It should also be part of medical school training in terms of how do you deal with errors when they happen? How do you deal with other cognitive distortions? Whether it's overgeneralization like I talked about before. Or it's something else. And you know, either or fallacy or false dichotomy, another name for that.
Dr. Jimmy Turner: How do you deal with these things? Well, the first way you deal with them is by knowing what they are so you can recognize them. And then teach them self-compassion, right? Like self-compassion is a skill that almost no one is taught in medicine. And then we eat ourselves alive with our perfectionism and with our imposter syndrome that you're just talking about.
Dr. Jimmy Turner: And so like these are trainable skills. We just unfortunately have to learn them the hard way. Or sometimes it leads to pretty terrible outcomes in medicine, right? In terms of healthcare providers and we have a suicide epidemic. And also there's stuff. So these are trainable skills though, like supporting yourself and like having this idea that getting help is weak.
Dr. Jimmy Turner: That's an idea that's rampant in medicine, which is ridiculous. And that's something that if we change, the culture doesn't have to exist anymore. So from a training super high level place, these are all things that can be worked on. And I would argue that if they are worked on that the patient actually gets better care in the end.
Dr. Jimmy Turner: Like, do you really want a surgeon who stayed up for 36 hours on call and then isn't able to admit that they're too tired not to operate on you? Because that would be a weakness. As the patient, do you really want superhero surgeon saying that? "No, no, no. I'm fine. I can operate. You know, I know I've been up all night. But this is just a heart, you know. We're just doing a bypass on your heart."
Dr. Jimmy Turner: At the end of the day, even the patient wants doctors not to be like this, right. And so, I would argue that if you fix these problems, not only does it help the doctor, it helps the patient.
Daniel Wrenne: Yeah. I agree. If you sit and think through it, it kinda makes sense.
Daniel Wrenne: You want the doctor to be healthy. You gotta be healthy to be able to provide good care and when you're stretched too thin, it's gonna come through an all layer. Not only in, that's the other thing too, is if you are a perfectionist, overworked, burning out, whatever, it seeps into all your personal life too.
Daniel Wrenne: And it tends to mess all that up, which is just to me, even worse. Because that's usually what's most important to people.
Dr. Jimmy Turner: Well, yeah. It amplifies things and I don't know. I might push back on that a little bit, Daniel, because medicine is such a strong idol. People may on paper and and having coached hundreds of doctors at this point, people may on paper say, "You know, what's most important to me as being a really good wife or husband or partner, or mom or dad, or brother or sister or friend or whatever. And that may be on paper what their priorities are, but in their actual life, medicine is their number one overarching idol.
Dr. Jimmy Turner: I mean, what your life actually says is important and what you think are important, are often not the same thing. And that's what causes this cognitive problem that people have in terms of, it's disorienting. Like it's morally disorienting. You're like, "No, these are my priorities, but this is what my life actually looks like and what my life says are really my priorities."
Dr. Jimmy Turner: And those two things are different. So there's cognitive dissonance that happens. And so you're right, when things get worse at home, what do people do? They run to work. And then work's the problem causing things to be bad at home. So it's just like this vicious cycle. And unfortunately that's super common in medicine.
Daniel Wrenne: Yeah. It is like the quote, it's like, "Show me your checkbook in your calendar, I'll tell you what's most important to you."
Dr. Jimmy Turner: That's exactly right.
Daniel Wrenne: Yeah, I mean that's true 'cuz everybody says, I've heard him people say it a hundred times. It's usually what people say is my family's most important, or my relationships, or my faith ,or like charitable giving, or like these things outside of work. And then it's like, you're working 80 hours a week and you don't know your family or whatever. So that tears at you 'cuz you're not actually being the person you say you wanna be.
Dr. Jimmy Turner: Yeah. And that causes really problematic. You know, moral disorientation. I mean, you are at that point really struggling and you may not realize until it gets very, very bad. And you're like just extremely burned out.
Daniel Wrenne: Is it okay to idolize work?
Dr. Jimmy Turner: My opinion, I mean, just unfiltered opinions from Jimmy Turner cause that's the only style I bring. Yeah, I think that's a problem. You know, because I think it would be better if people were honest about it. If they said, cuz there wouldn't be moral disorientation, right?
Dr. Jimmy Turner: There wouldn't be this cognitive dissonance. If you said, "You know what? Work is my number one most important thing in my life." And then it was. You'd be like, okay, at least I'm being honest. I'm calling spade a spade. It is what it is. And there's no judgment. Right? If work is your number one priority, there is zero judgment. I'm not saying that you being a wife or a husband or a mom or dad or whatever other labels you might have in your life, if those are less important to you, then that's your choice. It's your life. You get one life to live, you live it. Right? But don't try to tell yourself that your family and your friends are more important in your mind when reality is really that work is most important. 'Cuz that's gonna cause problems for you.
Dr. Jimmy Turner: I don't care what life people live, it's their life. Right? But it's only an idol if you're lying to yourself, right? It's only an idol if it's the planting something else that's supposed to be more important.
Daniel Wrenne: Yeah, I think two, what I would throw in is if you look at people later in their life or on their deathbed, I interviewed a hospice physician and you probably..
Dr. Jimmy Turner: Jordan Grumet?
Daniel Wrenne: Yeah, yeah. But he's got all kinds of great perspective on the back end of life. That's what's so interesting about his experience. And so he talks, if y'all haven't listened to that, definitely check that out. Cause that's a such a great conversation about what we're talking about right now, and we extend upon it. But of course, you're in charge of your own life and whatever you choose to be most important and actually following through with is, is what it is.
Daniel Wrenne: And that's great. But the problem what she brings out is that a lot of people get to the late stage in life. And nobody says, "Man, I wish I'd worked more hours in my job or whatever."
Dr. Jimmy Turner: Yeah, it's interesting cause, you know, so Doc G and I go way back we both started our blogs about the same time in 2017. And shared a room at Fincons. Great. He's a good guy.
Daniel Wrenne: Oh, you've been at FinCon?
Dr. Jimmy Turner: Yeah. And so he, in that book, I'm taking stock is the book. I think it's great. You should definitely go buy it. And so he's got the purpose connection, and identity, right. And I think it's fascinating when he talks about that idea and what people really get to at the end of the life and what's important. And I think that the mistake people make is that later realization comes from the fact that their purpose in life, their connection with people in life and their identity, who they are comes from work.
Dr. Jimmy Turner: Right? Being a doctor is who they are. It's what their purpose is. It's where their community is. Like it's so common for doctors not to have friends outside the hospital. That's not normal.
Daniel Wrenne: Yeah.
Dr. Jimmy Turner: That's not normal.
Daniel Wrenne: And it's very unhealthy.
Dr. Jimmy Turner: It's very unhealthy. And so when all of those things come from work and then at some point in your life you can no longer work, that's when they end up having that realization that Jordan lays down in that book, right? And I think that, so to your point maybe it isn't an idol because it truly is what's most important to you right now, but that doesn't mean you won't regret it later.
Daniel Wrenne: Yeah. What he does a good job of is reminding us is like, when's the last time you took an hour to actually ask yourself the question, what's most important and what's your purpose?
Dr. Jimmy Turner: Yeah. It's that autopilot thing we were talking about before, right. That's not good for anybody.
Daniel Wrenne: Yeah. When I was preparing for our conversation, he has this hospice review thing that he used to use and I was just kind of interested in it. And thought it would be good to go through it just to kind of prepare. And it's like, It's kind of a little hard 'cuz it's brings back, it's tough stuff.
Daniel Wrenne: You gotta think about like what's most important, what are your priorities in life? And then that questionnaire brings you back into the past. And explores your childhood and what things were good and bad and all that kind of thing and relationships and all that. But that exercise is part of gaining that awareness I think when you mix that education with the awareness, you can really.. And it doesn't have to be, this is not like super complicated. Well it's challenging but it's not super time consuming, I guess. Like an hour exercise we're talking about. And that's like the most important stuff in life we're talking about. But people are just resistant resistant to it.
Dr. Jimmy Turner: It's not hard to understand. It's just hard to do.
Daniel Wrenne: Yeah. So people are so resistant to do it. I guess I think I've gotten in the habit of it or I'm maybe like naturally lean that direction so I have a hard time understanding why people are so resistant to go deep.
Daniel Wrenne: Like I love a deep thinking exercise and really exploring what's most important, that kind of thing. But it's hard.
Dr. Jimmy Turner: I think that having coached people almost always the reason that they're not willing to do that is because they're trying to avoid discomfort. Until you're comfortable being uncomfortable, those are very, very challenging conversations to have. They're very challenging things to think through. And going deep requires you to take yourself off autopilot to be intentional, to ask tough questions. And then to be willing to do the work to actually answer them and deal with the consequences of those answers, right? Like, if you look back at your life and say, "Hey, I've had this one relationship that I've never really dealt with that I know is in the back burner that at some point during my life I'm gonna need to deal with, it's just not the way that it should be." I mean, that takes a lot of time and energy and emotion to have that conversation to fix that one thing.
Dr. Jimmy Turner: Or you could just be on autopilot and just be like, "No, it's just that thing I'm gonna deal with later." And which is so much easier. And we all do it. I do that. I mean, I've got relationships in my own life that I probably need to go and, you know, hash out. And I've not done it for 20 years. They're called parents, right? And so it's just one of those things. We all have it.
Daniel Wrenne: Yeah. Have you ever done therapy before?
Dr. Jimmy Turner: Oh, yeah.
Daniel Wrenne: When I did therapy for the first time, my wife brought up the idea. We were not like, it had not gotten really bad yet. So there were some things that were showing that it was like illogical kind of things. It's like classic, therapy is a good solution. So my wife's like brought it up. And I'm like, she's basically like, "Are you open to it?" And I'm like, "Ah!" I know they're gonna ask about my childhood. And she's like, "Well, yeah, are you comfortable talking about it?" I'm like, "No, I don't really want to talk about it. Like I don't."
Daniel Wrenne: But I get that it like that's important to work through it, but I don't want to do it. I was living the battle of not wanting to address the pain, but realizing that is potentially the cause of my weird thing. I was doing that didn't make any sense, you know. Because it's basically rooted in childhood.
Dr. Jimmy Turner: It's the activation energy, right? Like the amount of emotion and time and just difficulty you have to spend to get to your goal when it comes to that sort of stuff is really challenging. And so you always have to ask yourself like, "Am I willing to go through that in order to get this." Right? And if the answer is ever No, you just don't do it and you go on autopilot in that area of your life.
Dr. Jimmy Turner: And that could be financial, it could be personal, it could be professional and we're always asking, "Am I willing to deal with the discomfort of that"? Or I know that when I work out, like do physically work out. That I'm gonna be sore the next day, right. It's gonna be hard when I do it. I'm gonna hurt the next day. And at some point I have to decide is that worth? You know, being in shape and being healthier Yeah. That I may be am around longer for my kids. Right?
Daniel Wrenne: Yeah. But I think this is like so much harder because we introduced this emotional component that we're trained. Or, I don't know, culturalized to bury.
Dr. Jimmy Turner: Yeah.
Daniel Wrenne: On top of it all. So I'm like, I'd rather just not go into super emotional. I know that's where it's gonna go. And I'd rather just bury it, you know?
Dr. Jimmy Turner: Yeah. Well, and I think that that's something that actually causes a lot of the issue in medicine. So on both of my podcasts, the reason why I'm so open, and I just mentioned 20 minutes ago that I'm on an antidepressant. That I have been before, I still am right now.
Dr. Jimmy Turner: I've got no problem mentioning that because we do bury it. And we're told to bury it. And we're told that if you talk about stuff, it's weird. And there's stigma. And it makes people uncomfortable. And it's like actually the way that you deal with discomfort, if anybody likes Brené Brown, big fan by the way, you talk about stuff, that's how you deal with shame.
Dr. Jimmy Turner: That's how you deal with stuff that's harbored in the background is like, you actually say it out loud. Not probably not on a podcast. You probably need to go talk to a confidant or..
Daniel Wrenne: Yeah. Let's start in a small group. One-on-one.
Dr. Jimmy Turner: Exactly. With someone you trust, that you love, that you know is gonna just listen to you. But at the same time, we are told to bury it. And that happens with everything. I mean, even in your world, Daniel, right? People do the same thing with their personal finances. They're like, "You know what? This is awkward. I'm not good with money. I don't know how to deal with it. I don't know anything about it."
Dr. Jimmy Turner: And so I would rather just pretend that I do and bury that and put my head in the sand. And then realize when I'm 47 that I haven't saved anything. And like, "Oh wait, I wanna retire when I'm 55." And you're like, well, I'm sorry buddy. The math just doesn't work like that. That's not how things are.
Dr. Jimmy Turner: You know, but it happens all the time. People are like, "Oh, I just finally found your stuff. And I'm 52 years old and I'm realizing I'm not gonna have enough saved." It's like, well, you buried your head in the sand for 16 years and here we are.
Daniel Wrenne: Right. Well, you know and people don't wanna share their private stuff that adds to it even more. I mean, there's so many components that make it challenging, but what helps me and I think is something to think about is focusing on what the end goal is or the benefits of it. And to me it's like living a good life. Like you're improving your life by doing the hard work of thinking about these sorts of things and being vulnerable and asking the tough questions and having courage. And that's why entrepreneurship, so going back to entrepreneurship, that's what I love about entrepreneurship. There's no formal training for entrepreneurship. But it's like you have to work on all those things.
Daniel Wrenne: And it's kind of like the foundation of doing it. And I think that's one of the biggest things missing in medicine. And I wonder what it was like back in the day when that used to be like mom and pop docs. You know everybody had their own practice. And they were entrepreneurs back then.
Daniel Wrenne: But now there's not very many entrepreneur physicians.
Dr. Jimmy Turner: And that actually.. Well, in some ways, and I'll be honest having, actually I still wear both hats, I'm still an employed physician. I still am an entrepreneur. I tell people all the time, well, like entrepreneurship 'cuz the way that we're talking about it makes it sound great. Like, "Hey, you're gonna conquer all your fears. And you're gonna move on these incredible spots. And you're gonna be able to know how to deal with failure." Man, like when I go back and do anesthesia, and now remember, think about this, right?
Dr. Jimmy Turner: When I do anesthesia and I make a mistake, someone dies. Like a human being in this world dies if I make a mistake, right? That is not stressful to me anymore. Entrepreneurship is stressful. And so when you think about all of these things like when entrepreneurship's going well and we're solving problems and it's on the up and up, it's fantastic.
Dr. Jimmy Turner: But there really are some benefits to being an employed person who doesn't have to make all those top end decisions and have the decision fatigue of dealing with every single decision in your business. And so when the physicians transition back in the day from like, wait, so you're gonna cut me a giant check and then you're gonna deal with all of those headaches that I have to deal with all the time right now?
Dr. Jimmy Turner: I don't think that they realized what they were trading that for, which was not really understanding and still gaining those entrepreneurial skillsets we were talking about earlier, right? Like, yes, you do get rid of the headaches. Yes, you do get a big paycheck, but now physicians these days because they don't own their own businesses, are also lacking a bunch of the skills that they used to have, which is what you're alluding to.
Dr. Jimmy Turner: And so you know, they kind of threw the baby out with the bathwater to some extent.
Daniel Wrenne: Yeah. So our families that we work with that are in, have their own practices, or especially like the direct primary care concierge physicians, they're working in on all this stuff. And they generally the ones we work with are very happy.
Daniel Wrenne: Like none of them are burning out. Now the business has its own flavor of stress, but what I interviewed some clients that we work with and they started a concierge practice from scratch. And still had student loans and were really early in their career. And it was kind of a stressful switch, but the way they described it was how it is very stressful, but it's a different flavor of stress. And it's much more tolerable stress.
Daniel Wrenne: Their stress in the hospital world was like no solution possible. It's like there's no problem solving going on.
Dr. Jimmy Turner: Yeah. You're describing it better than I did, which it is a different kind of stress. And it does come with a lot of benefits, whereas the stress in medicine, often there are no benefits.
Dr. Jimmy Turner: Right? So at least in the entrepreneurial world, you're like, "Oh, well, this is stressful. But I know on the other side of that it's gonna be worth it."
Dr. Jimmy Turner: I don't know. It's been an interesting journey, but I guess the reason that I say that, and I mentioned that, is because I don't want it to be another arrival for people that they're like, "Oh, if I could just go to two days a week and run this business on the side and have this, you know, like.." It's tough.
Dr. Jimmy Turner: And when you are concierge, it's good. But the massive caveat there, having coached people in the same situations, is you have to be very, very good at setting boundaries or learn how to. If you don't do that, I guarantee you that burnout will be just as bad yeah. Cause I've seen it.
Daniel Wrenne: Yeah. It amplifies it in some instances. And so I think what it goes back to is like, I agree. Thanks for pointing that out, because I was starting to describe it as a little too rosy and it's definitely not..
Dr. Jimmy Turner: Well, it's both, right? It's 50 50.
Daniel Wrenne: Yeah, It is a different thing. But it definitely comes with its own set of challenges. And what I love about it is it comes with a, or puts you more in the position of the problem solver or being able to solve the problems. And a lot of people we work with have no ability to solve the problems. And it that is incredibly frustrating to have these problems that are seems fairly straightforward to be able to solve.
Daniel Wrenne: And there's no way to solve the problems that makes you insane.
Dr. Jimmy Turner: So that's the definition of moral injury, right? So in my world, the classic question is burnout the right word to describe the phenomenon that's happening in physicians? And I spent an entire section of my book describing this problem because moral injury is when you know what to do, you know how to do it, you have the ability to solve the problem like you're talking about, but you're not able to because the system doesn't let you.
Dr. Jimmy Turner: That is moral injury. Burnout is the quintessential three things that Fergen Berger described, emotional exhaustion, depersonalization, and lack of accomplishment. And so for me, that is a false dichotomy. Moral injury is the systemic phenomenon that you're describing that leads to the individual experience of burnout, right?
Dr. Jimmy Turner: It's both. It's both. And they're both terrible. They're both bad. They both are miserable places to be. And unfortunately you can have both
Daniel Wrenne: Yeah. They overlap a lot. And I think, so one other thing I was I wanted to ask you about too is as we were talking about entrepreneurship and solving problems, I see a lot, there's almost like there's a movement almost to go into other avenues to help solve the problem.
Daniel Wrenne: Like for instance, financial independence, hardcore fire, side gigs, passive income. Those are probably the most popular movements. And I think the problem, this is my opinion since we're sharing opinions..
Dr. Jimmy Turner: Yeah. I love opinions. Share it. We'll talk about it.
Daniel Wrenne: My opinion is that I think the intent is they're doing that because of the jacked up healthcare system in a lot of cases. Or to make more money and probably to make more money to get out of the jacked up healthier system, which is kinda the same thing. But the problem is that they're not really solving the underlying issue of my job. Like the healthcare system is jacked up and I can't do much about it in my current position.
Daniel Wrenne: In some instances, they're forcing themself even more into that system. And I think that's a problem in some instances, if you're going, and that's for the fire sort of subset of the group. Now, the side gigs, passive income subset, this kind of the issues I see there is it's like I see people get spread pretty thin. And then they're still stressed at their job in medicine and it takes a long time.
Dr. Jimmy Turner: Yeah. Burn the candles to both ends. I mean, if you step back and think about this for any normal non-physician person listening to this podcast, or if you can just like take off your doctor hat for a second, right. If someone made $500,000 a year, $250,000 a year, whatever number you wanna say, and they loved what they did, they would not be going out and looking for more work.
Daniel Wrenne: Correct.
Dr. Jimmy Turner: Or saying, how can I do more of this to get out of it sooner? So by the very nature of the fact that there are Facebook groups on side gigs for doctors that have 100,000 doctors in them.
Daniel Wrenne: Massive.
Dr. Jimmy Turner: Yeah. Massive groups and financial independence groups. None of which, by the way I'm not hating on either of those things. I do both of them. But if you think that that's gonna solve your problem, you haven't really figured out what the problem is. The problem is your job in medicine and the system and unfortunately, what happens is it, it's a little bit like some of the social programs we're you know what, we're gonna give money to this set of people because we really think it's gonna help 'em. And then hopefully they can go back and help the communities where they grew up.
Dr. Jimmy Turner: And medicine's the same way. It's like, okay, so we have this problem that's forcing all these doctors out. And so then we give these doctors the solutions of physician side gigs or financial independence or what have you, and then they leave medicine, but they never really go back and try to fix the thing that caused the problem in the first place.
Dr. Jimmy Turner: And so to me, I would like it if doctors became financially independent enough that we could all stand up and say, "No, this system doesn't work anymore." It needs to be fixed. And require it. Demand it. Fight for it to change so that the people coming behind us don't have to get the same 47 lashings before they are happy in life, right?
Dr. Jimmy Turner: We should leave something better than where we found it. And unfortunately a lot of these mechanisms that we're describing are escape patches. They are ways to just completely leave and to never have to deal with it again 'cuz it's too big of a problem to fix. And to me, I understand why people feel that way 'cuz I felt that way, but it's sad.
Daniel Wrenne: Yeah. Do you have to be financially independent to say No?
Dr. Jimmy Turner: No. You don't. And that's one of the things that I enjoy coaching people about, is that you can actually set boundaries and negotiate and you have way more leverage than you ever imagine if you just realize it.
Dr. Jimmy Turner: And you can say no, right? And so at some point, this is gonna catch up to me cause I've said it so many times in public at this point, but like the online modules. I just don't do them. I just don't do them. And I have online modules from like four years ago that are still not done.
Dr. Jimmy Turner: But everyone's like, oh, well I'm told I have to do these. And I'm like, I mean, you can, you can do them. Yet they'll send you some emails. But like every 18 months, I'll get this one email from Brenda, one of our amazing staff upstairs. I just be like," Hey Jimmy, I need you to do that one on online module you haven't done yet."
Dr. Jimmy Turner: And I'll email her back like, "Hey Brenda, thanks for letting me know. I have 47 that aren't done currently. Can you tell me which one is the one that I have to do?" And she's like, "Oh, it's this one. Do you really have 46 others that aren't done?" "Yes, Brenda, I'll take care of that one just for you." Right?
Dr. Jimmy Turner: And then I take care. Well, like, no, I'm not gonna do a LVAD awareness to make sure that I know that there are left ventricular assist devices in the world. I'm an anesthesiologist if I don't know what an LVAD is, I shouldn't have a job. If I can't recognize a stroke, I shouldn't be a doctor at all.
Dr. Jimmy Turner: So why am I doing these online modules for these things that I clearly have to have skills? That's like me saying, "Hey, you know, Daniel, in order for you to continue being a financial planner, I'm gonna need you to prove to me that you know how to do a summation on and on an Excel sheet."
Dr. Jimmy Turner: If you can't do that and I need you to watch a module, take..
Daniel Wrenne: Over and over.
Dr. Jimmy Turner: Take a quiz on it. We just can't let you manage people's finances. You know? If you don't understand a different Excel function, like it's ridiculous. Like you have to know how to do that, right? Like you have to know a variety of things to do your job. And if you can't do it right? Like it just doesn't make any sense.
Dr. Jimmy Turner: And so I do say no to that. And I've said no to it for 4 years. And you know, at some point someone's gonna listen to a podcast and I'm gonna be told to do all 46 of those modules and I'll have to deal with that.
Dr. Jimmy Turner: But it'll be time well spent. Cause I told all the people that they can say no to things.
Daniel Wrenne: Yeah. Well the world didn't blow up and..
Dr. Jimmy Turner: Things haven't changed. I check my email only when I'm at work. I do not check my work email if I'm not physically on the property. And I work 3 days a week right now.
Dr. Jimmy Turner: So that means that there's often 5 or 7 days where my work email doesn't get checked. And you know what? The world hasn't exploded, nothing's changed. No one's died because I haven't checked my email. Like I know that's a mind altering thing, but you can say no to that too. Like there are lots of things you can say no to. And set boundaries.
Dr. Jimmy Turner: So none of those also, by the way, it's your question require me to be financially independent in order to do them.
Daniel Wrenne: Right. I think that's a misconception that's why I'm asked, I'm glad you said what you said. ' Cuz we're on the same page there because you know a lot of people are really attached to the idea that financial independence will allow them to begin saying No. And that's not really true. That's like this idea that the same sort of idea of when I get into practice, the money is gonna solve all my problems. Money does not solve problems. It's the way you use the money or learn to use the money.
Dr. Jimmy Turner: In fact, it often causes problems 'cuz once you have you want.
Daniel Wrenne: Correct. Correct. Mo money mo problems.
Dr. Jimmy Turner: Mo money mo problems.
Daniel Wrenne: That's right. So Coach, you're kinda getting into coaching. I think that's a good very underutilized service for physicians like speaking of entrepreneurship and medicine. I have had multiple business coaches and it's normal in the business circles to have performance coaches.
Daniel Wrenne: That's just like a thing that you do if you wanna like up your game. And it's more like in the future oriented. Like whereas therapy is kind of like in counseling, maybe is like if you're illogical having trouble. Like you don't understand what's going on. And both are good, but coaching is fantastic I think for really working through a lot of this stuff too. And especially when we're talking about the future and turning the corner of change.
Daniel Wrenne: That's another thing we're all prone to, is we want to figure everything out ourselves. Like with no help whatsoever.
Dr. Jimmy Turner: That's weak. Why would you need help, Daniel?
Daniel Wrenne: It's so weak. Like, don't ask for directions.
Dr. Jimmy Turner: It's accurate. Just figure it out.
Daniel Wrenne: Just figure it all out yourself. Doesn't matter if it takes millions of hours. You can do this. You can do everything yourself.
Dr. Jimmy Turner: That's right.
Daniel Wrenne: So I mean, we're being sarcastic by the way. But the problem with that is you end up spending time spending your wheels and it takes you away from what's really most important whether it's your family or whatever.
Daniel Wrenne: And you gotta look at it like that. What are the trade offs? And people are happy to help people. And even if it's not a coach, but like asking for help I think is something that we're all weak at and we can do a better job of.
Daniel Wrenne: But coaches, you basically hire them and they are there to work with you along the way to help you through it. Like in multiple areas. Not only, it's like you ask one question, you're asking many questions and they're alongside with you to provide the accountability. And that's going back to the courses in a different light.
Daniel Wrenne: It's like everybody gets these courses to turn the corner in my life or whatever course. Like how to figure out how to get to the next level. Training online or whatever. And then they don't do it. AnD then they're like, "Man, what happened?" But the action, taking action.
Dr. Jimmy Turner: Yeah, so I got two podcasts. So the Physician Philosopher, the tagline on that one is, Start before you're ready. Start by starting, start now. And the reason why is because of exactly what you're alluding to. Like the activation energy, just getting started is what trips people up 80% of the time.
Dr. Jimmy Turner: And in fact, if you don't own an online business, you probably don't know this, but I'm gonna tell you anyway, if you buy an online course, there's an 80% chance you'll never finish it. And so like some underwhelmingly negative number of people actually ever finish an online course. And actually a pretty large number, never even start the courses that they buy.
Dr. Jimmy Turner: And so it is an interesting thing that we want to start things, right? Like, "Oh, I wanna start working out. I wanna do that one online course. I want to get a financial planner. Oh, I want to get a coach." But you just don't quite do it.
Dr. Jimmy Turner: Yet you don't realize that those people are the ones that are gonna be able to kind of kick you in the behind and say, "Hey, let's get you going."
Dr. Jimmy Turner: Let's see how we can get you start before you're ready, you know?
Daniel Wrenne: Right. And then you get hung up on the quantifying the cost benefit analysis. I mean, there's all things you get hung up on, but that's a classic one.
Dr. Jimmy Turner: No. Yeah. And that one's, I actually was having this conversation the other day, Daniel. So I was talking to one of my colleagues and I said, "Hey" I mean people always ask like, "Hey, how do I figure out what kind of side gig?" I'm like, "Well, what do people ask you about every day at work that's not medicine related?" So for me, that's money. 100%. There's not a day that I go to work people won't ask me about personal finance.
Dr. Jimmy Turner: And, so my buddy is like, "Hey, Jimmy, I was talking about investing with my wife. And just, I'm obviously a big, you know, index fund guy." And so I'm trying to get her to take the money that, she's also a physician, that she's making and invest that as well.
Dr. Jimmy Turner: But she just comes from a different family background and different history around money, and she just wants to stuff it under the mattress. He's like, "What do you think I should tell her?"
Dr. Jimmy Turner: I was like, "Well, two things. I imagine that since you're asking me about this, you've already had these conversations. So people that don't wanna know about money, you can't talk about money. So the second thing is, you're her husband, so you're not gonna be able to say anything to her that is going to magically make this just make sense, right? You need a financial planner who can sit as a third person objective party in the room to bounce ideas off of."
Dr. Jimmy Turner: And when they say something makes sense, right? And they're hearing it from a objective expert, they, I bet will be more likely to come along with you on this ride of investing, 'cuz now she'll be able to see the journey that they're going on in the life you're gonna create and this is how you're gonna get there. And she's hearing it from somebody that's not you.
Dr. Jimmy Turner: And by the way, none of that has to do with investing, right? Like that's, and so people, particularly in the financial planning world, they all quantify costs for planners based on, well, but hold on Daniel. But if I just do index fund . Investing and you're gonna cost me 1% and I do the math on that, right?
Dr. Jimmy Turner: And that's a 7 figure number when I'm 67, how can I possibly justify using a financial planner? And you're like, "Well, actually it's because investing is not the most important thing a financial planner does." Right? That's the easy part, by the way. So it's an interesting. And I know, that's my opinion, obviously.
Daniel Wrenne: What's the value of helping you take action? That's the question. And everybody's different. And then what's the value of helping you to continue to stay on track?
Dr. Jimmy Turner: 100%
Daniel Wrenne: Yeah. And that's for a lot of people. If just look at the older people in your life. Ask your grandparents, have you made any mistakes? Tell me about your mistakes. Let's explore. What are some things you could have done better? So if you can improve your trajectory and take more positive action and continue on that, that's what we're talking about with these sorts of whether it's coach or financial planner working, self-development, stuff like that.
Daniel Wrenne: If you can take action and improve as a person, you can't quantify it. But it is very value. I would argue it's extremely,
Dr. Jimmy Turner: Oh man, I can calculate my assets under management fee. That's very quantifiable. And so it's hard because you're comparing this very quantifiable, I can punch it into a calculator, see what this is gonna cost me in 60 years versus this unquantifiable, right?
Dr. Jimmy Turner: But how much would it save you if you prevented a mistake or if I got, you started on the right journey, or if I got you to buy disability insurance and then you got disabled later in life, but you kept putting it off. Like that is a massive 7 figure mistake, right?
Dr. Jimmy Turner: And so, when people start having these conversations, it really is all about and always will be about the return on your investment, right?
Dr. Jimmy Turner: And you have to sit back and think the exact questions that you're asking right now, right? And sometimes it makes it a little more palatable if you think about the future. Like looking back a year, 5 years, 10 years from now, would it have been worth to pay X number of dollars if I knew where I was gonna accomplish goals A, B, and C, which are really important to me, right?
Dr. Jimmy Turner: So let's say someone wants to start that side gig we were talking about before. They're thinking about getting an entrepreneurial coach, right? Which by the way, is not what I do, so I'm not pitching you my services. Would it be worth it to you to pay $5,000 for a coach who's actually going to make your business really exist and get you the inertia to start creating it so that in 5 years you have this six figure business you paid $5,000 to get someone to help you create.
Dr. Jimmy Turner: Like of course it's worth it, right? You're getting a 20 x ROI, right? But the emotional and psychological benefits of having some of this help is not so easily measured. Right? And I think that's what makes it tough for people.
Daniel Wrenne: Yeah. But if you're stuck, these are all possible solutions. And some people get through themselves. I, 100% believe that's much harder road. And at some point you can't be doing everything yourself. We thrive in relationships and I think you have to lean on your brother and at some point, but some people have an easier road like going independent route and solo and that's all good and DIY and whatnot.
Daniel Wrenne: But, hiring a coach can be fantastic. But really it comes down to like awareness, taking action and I think that's we've been talking about. And I know we're cutting off in our time here and I don't really want to, 'cuz it's such a good conversation and I wanna just keep going.
Daniel Wrenne: But that's why we set an end in time on this stuff, especially when it's good man. It's hard to cut off. But any info about you and like where people can find you and we talked a little bit about your coaching services and I know that's one thing and you got the book and all that stuff, but what's the best place for people to find you?
Dr. Jimmy Turner: Yeah, so the best place for people to find me, obviously this is a podcast. So the two podcast people, can find are Money Meets Medicine, which is financial in the medical community content. And then the Physician Philosopher podcast, which is predominantly coaching and mindset for physicians.
Dr. Jimmy Turner: And so those are the two podcasts that are out there and they're obviously both free. So that's the place I'd point both of them to. And if they wanna learn anything else, they can always go to the physicianphilosopher.com, and check out the other stuff that's there.
Daniel Wrenne: Yeah, both great podcasts and I would definitely highly recommend them.
Daniel Wrenne: And I'm a big fan of podcasts, so.
Dr. Jimmy Turner: Me too.
Daniel Wrenne: Love them. Jimmy, I appreciate it. It's been a fun conversation and hopefully we can circle back and dig into some of this stuff more. I think there's like 15 sub-topics within the stuff we talked about, so..
Dr. Jimmy Turner: Yeah. Yeah, this is a very, very broad, broad overview. But yeah, Daniel's a ton of fun. I really enjoyed chatting with you and hopefully we can do it again in the future.
Daniel Wrenne: Yeah. Thanks bud.
