Episode Transcript
Daniel Wrenne: Hey guys, hope you're having a great day. So today I'm gonna be talking with Dr. Jimmy Turner. Some of you might recognize his name. He's been on the show before, where we talked about how physicians can thrive in an in imperfect system. And along those similar lines, today we're gonna be talking about how physicians can.
Really look towards solutions to some of the healthcare problems that we have, the problems in the system. So more specifically, we're gonna talk about entrepreneurship and how I think it's like the solution. Jimmy has a little bit of a different spin on it. We'll talk through that. How entrepreneurship.
it can be a great solution to the healthcare mess that we're in. We also talk about values, conflicts, and how the system, the healthcare system oftentimes is in direct conflict with physicians own personal or professional values, and how that can create lots of added stress and really just amplify all these issues.
And then we talk about this idea of getting like true rest. Jimmy did a great podcast, about. Getting rest. And he, he used a book as an example of, some ideas to get rest. So I'll link to that in the show notes, but we talk about it today and how this is such a underutilized thing and we even get us get into some faith views around how rest is such an important factor, that I, I think you'll enjoy at least the perspective of that.
So, without further ado, I think. You're gonna enjoy the conversation. I certainly did. And so we will go ahead and jump into our show.
Daniel Wrenne: Jimmy. What's up buddy?
Dr. Jimmy Turner: Hey Daniel. How are you man?
Daniel Wrenne: I'm doing well. Thanks for joining me. I feel like we have a lot to talk about anytime we catch up. We've already been catching up actually before we started recording. so there's a bunch of stuff, We're both kind of swimming in the same pond and doing a lot of the similar, similar stuff.
But today I kind of wanted to hone in on this, idea of entrepreneurship and, physicians and these problems in healthcare that exist. So I emailed Jimmy for you guys listening. You wouldn't know this. I emailed Jimmy, I don't know how long ago it was, few months ago or something like that.
Yeah. I'm like, I got these ideas. I'm like, what do you think? And it was like, boom. Entrepreneurship, is great. It's a great solution to the problems in healthcare. And here's some other ideas, and I think I even said it is the solution. I think I worded it exactly. You did. You did. I think you did.
Entrepreneurship is the solution to the healthcare problem. And so, and then I had a few other ideas, like I talked about. Direct care is a great example of that, and I think that will be the catalyst that will change the direction of healthcare for the better. And so mostly your response was in agreeance except for, the point that I said about, I think you had issue with the, part about the solution.
Mm-hmm. so maybe we could start there is I'll kind of throw out my ideas on what I meant by like the solution. Sure. And then maybe we can go back and forth on that. Yeah, let's do it. Sweet. So, what I was thinking is that when I say the solution, I think. The system is really strong in America and probably ever, but like the system is huge and it's strong and it's an entrenched system and it's political and it's like regulated and it's extremely slow to move, right?
Like it moves. Like a slug and it's resistant to change and it's ex incredibly profitable. There's a ton of money being made. So there's very little incentive for internal changes to happen, at least at the moment. And so I personally believe that it's gonna take some outsiders busting out of there to.
Encourage the change, and I think physicians are far and away the best suited to make that happen. so that's what I mean by like, it has to involve physician entrepreneurship. I think we kind of agree and I said it a certain way, but I think not everybody's a physician entrepreneur.
Like not everybody needs to do entrepreneurship, but I think it's like the trailblazers, like the people that jump ship. And are like gonna go do a thing a different way and have the courage to go do that. That's like necessary. I see that happening a lot, which is kind of cool to see. Sure. But like that is necessary.
And then what happens is that's introduces more competition. Like the system gets a little nervous, they start to see. Competitors, they start to change their ways. That's my take on it. But I'm, curious now that I've said that, what are your thoughts? Yeah,
Dr. Jimmy Turner: so, so I guess what I would do to start, is, you know, when we talk about the problem in the system, so the way that I frame this, the framework that I use, because anytime that this concept's introduced to someone that's a medical professional, there's two terms that come out.
One is moral injury, the other one is burnout. And so I think it's important just to, carve out a piece for a second. Just describe what. Quote unquote. The problem is, and so, for me, burnout is that, classic triad that Friedenberg described, with the three different pillars.
And, a lot of the doctors that have, taken the, the MAs luck, burnout inventory are familiar with this. Right. But, you know, it's really the idea of, emotional exhaustion, in terms of apathy, lack of accomplishment despite having a massive amount of accomplishment.
I always find that one really interesting among doctors. They're like, yeah, I just feel like I haven't accomplished much. And it's like, you are a doctor. But it happens. And you know, that's imposter syndrome, that's what we call that. And then depersonalization, right? We start treating patients and, even colleagues and other things in our life, kinda like inanimate objects, like we depersonalize them.
And so a lot of people say, oh well, it's not really called burnout cuz burnout implies it's the doctor's fault or the nurse's fault, or the medical professional's fault. and I would say that actually I think the burn, burnout is actually a pretty apt description. That that is the phenomenon that happens within the individual, but the cause of it is systemic moral injury, right?
It's a moral injury being that you work in a system, you know how to help people, you know what to do, you're educated, knowledgeable, and experienced enough to do it, but that big bad medical system doesn't let you do so. Right. And so for me, I, I think it's a false dichotomy that people make when they say, it's either burnout or multiple, moral injury.
So it's an either or fallacy is another way to call that. And I think it's both, I think it's a both end moral injury exists at the systemic level that causes the individual phenomenon of burnout in the medical professional on the front line. Mm-hmm. And so when we talk about the problem as in medicine and, doctors not being able to, sort their way through it and have a lot of say, The question kinda becomes, and I talk about this in my book, determined that, the three things that doctors have to have in order to love their job, to feel intrinsically motivated, to feel engaged is autonomy.
They need control over their personal life and how they work. They need belonging. In other words, they need to feel like they're valued and important. And you know, a member of a team that's accomplishing a bigger purpose. And then they need to be good at what they do. They need to be competent. And so I call that the ABCs of self-determination.
It comes from, DC and Ryan's work on self-determination theory. And that is the antithesis of burnout. So that's what a, a healthy functioning doctor or medical professional would look like is having those ABCs. Burnout is on the other end of the spectrum, right, where you lack those things, and that's what causes the emotional exhaustion, the lack of accomplishment, feelings, and the depersonalization.
And so starting there, if that's the problem, the question right, that you're asking is, How do we solve it? What do we do? What, what's the solution? And I think it's, I think it's some interesting points that you point out. It, it is a really slow, big machine that, it's hard to move the needle on from a systemic level.
And, I guess I would argue that, that there are some big picture motivators for institutions that I just don't think that they have a, a great, ability to grasp, which is that. Anytime you lose a doctor, for example, from an institution, it costs two to three times their income to replace them, right?
So you're talking about a $300,000 anesthesiologist's gonna cost about a million bucks to replace them, a million dollar neurosurgeon, or it's gonna cost 3 million bucks to replace them. So there's very real costs that happen at the institutional level when doctors leave, but that's a lot tougher for an administrator who loves metrics to measure than.
It is for that person on the front line who very palpably feels all the problems. And so for a long time on the physician philosopher, my my tagline was fighting burnout with financial independence. And so you and I definitely agree to some extent that like, doctors finding that financial freedom, whether that's through entrepreneurship, side gig, or doing their due diligence and saving up until they have the chance to have that financial freedom, whatever their method is.
That, that does provide some ability for doctors to have that courage that you spoke of to jump ship, to change to mm-hmm. Really stand up for what needs to happen in medicine. And so I think that that's how I would kind of paint things is, that's the bigger problem. The autonomy piece that doctors need can come from financial freedom and then that autonomy allows them to, to stand up and hopefully make a change, or to find their financial freedom from direct primary care from some other source that's outside of the quote unquote,
Daniel Wrenne: system.
Yeah, I think the problem with the financial independence, and I agree that that's freedom from problem X, Y, Z, whatever it is, and, and for this context, it's like the burnout slash moral injury. But the problem with that is oftentimes pulls people outta the system that are the best. Mm-hmm. Like the smartest, best, the most disciplined, or the most likely, I would argue, to become financially independent the fastest.
So to me, I want that person to be my physician and they're leaving. So that's a problem for the system at least, is that those people, I work with them regularly one-on-one, like we're helping people, like literally we're helping families that get financial independence as fast as possible to bust out of the system so that they can be free from it.
Yeah. Every day. I mean, it feels like an everyday conversation. Yeah. But like as a patient, I'm like, what the heck? This is kinda nuts. Yeah. It's gonna be bad because, because who's gonna do the healthcare? And so I think when I look at this problem, I'm kind of looking at it from a bigger picture. Like, macro economic.
Yeah. Like what are we gonna do about the bigger problem? And I think these trailblazing entrepreneurs, That are staying in the realm of healthcare, uhhuh are the ones that, that are gonna make a difference. The other thing about moral injury you mentioned, I think you gotta look at both of them, collectively because burnout and moral injury, I think moral injury gets more into like, this values conflict.
We were talking about this before we started recording. Sure. Like the whole idea. Most physicians I work with, if I. Push them on this. They're like, yes, I truly believe that spending time with my patients is probably one of the biggest factors, especially primary care. like time is a pretty important thing that they would typically agree that is necessary in order to deliver the quality care that they know they can do, that they're trained to do, that they're experts in.
And this is just an example of this. The system is like squashing the time out of them to where they have very little time. Per patient, the number of patients they have, it's just impossible to deliver that, level of care. And so it's conflicting with their values. It's causing them to have trouble performing on what they would say is most important to them in their view of ideal healthcare.
And I think when you have like a values conflict, that's a little bit. Of a bigger problem. I think like that's, non-negotiable. once people realize that, I think it becomes a non-negotiable. Yeah. A lot of people don't realize that's happening, but my personal belief I had this values conflict when I used to work in, we talked about this too before we recorded, I used to work in like of the salesy.
Car salesman side of the industry in finances where I was selling insurances and calling myself an advisor, and I played the game, right? and so, I had my justification and felt good about it and agreed that I did the best for the clients. But I had kind of an awake eyeopening sort of experience where I realized actually I'm not like, this is not the best for clients and it's in conflict with my values.
And so once I realized that I was out fast, like I was out as fast as I could be because it's not worth doing something that's in conflict with your values. So I'm curious if we could kind of dig into that a little more. Like this whole values conflict, is this really as big of a conflict, is I'm acting like it is
or?
Dr. Jimmy Turner: Yeah. You know, I, I would say that it is you know, from coaching a bunch of doctors through career transitions. Yeah, I mean it absolutely is. And, and I think that the conflicts and, and I think it's, I think it's interesting, right? Cuz this, this conversation, it, it's a bit of a push and pull, yin and yang.
Like they, they are related things, right? The systemic phenomenon impacts the individual doctor, the individual doctor. Then it impacts, the, the system where you have less doctors who are helping take care of patients. So like, These things are so just intertwined and related that it's, it's almost hard to separate them.
Yeah. Um, cuz like for example, like the values conversation, right? There's kind of two different value conflicts that I would say, I hear people talk about. One is from the professional side where they're like, yeah, the hospital wants me to see patients in 15 minutes, but I really feel like I need to spend 30 to 45.
I've had a client before that did that primary care doc sports medicine. And yeah, they wanted to see patients in 15 minutes and they're like, you know what? I, I really like, I need longer time to do that. I wanna help people with their health span and living longer and preventing disease, not just treating it when it comes up.
And like that was really their vision. So, And for them, they felt like they really needed 45 minutes to an hour per patient to do that Well. and so they're thinking about, taking a step back from the traditional system in an academic hospital and going to a, d p C model that allows them to, to do that, now the patients have to pay cash, right.
To be involved in that model. And so, you kinda have to wonder like, oh, is this another systems issue? Right? Like, are we limiting this to. Only people that, that can afford the care. Yeah. And so like, it, it brings up a whole slew of issues. But then there's also the, the personal side, right?
Where I hear doctors saying like, Hey, they really want me to, to spend x amount of time at the hospital in terms of spending more hours there to get more cases done, or what have you, or pick up more shifts. And there's that tension between the values of being a partner or a parent and being a physician.
And so like this, there's this constant like, what are your values and what are you gonna place as a priority? And when those things conflict, like, who's gonna win? Right? and so it, it causes internal strife cuz you know, it, it's this constant battle of figuring out like, oh, if I do this, like what does this say?
Right? If, if I don't stand up for this change that I, I know I feel like the system needs. What does that mean? And if I do stand up, what's gonna happen to me? Right? Am I gonna lose my job? Are they going to reprimand me? Is my license at risk? And so when doctors don't have that financial freedom piece, there's a lot of doctors with some really great ideas who are scared to death of what would happen if they did what they felt like they actually needed to do.
And I know publicly saying that, like, you know, is not gonna be, it's gonna be a very hot take, but doctors are human, right? Doctors have bills to pay, they have families to feed just like anyone else does. And so they're worried. You know, if I do what I need to do and I take this risk, what happens to my family?
Right. And so, yeah, it's a super complicated thing, but yeah, absolutely. Yeah. The values issue is there. Well,
Daniel Wrenne: I remember a time in my life where I was selling whole life insurance to pay for my health insurance, for the family and I knew of older guys that had kids already. I didn't have kids at the time, fortunately, but it's like, I knew older guys that had kids at home and they're selling whole life insurance to residents.
This is the extreme example, but like selling whole life insurance to residents that can't afford it. It's a garbage product to basically be able to pay for health insurance and earn a living to feed the family. Like talk about a values conflict like, but I'm seeing like hints of that in healthcare and it reminds me back in the day of this whole thing, it's like, This guy also might have bought a little too much of a house.
he might have, he drives a fancy car potentially. maybe, maybe not, but like he's kind of put himself in this spot of having to keep up with this lifestyle. It's not like usually they're eating ramen noodles. so there's a little bit of like,
Dr. Jimmy Turner: well, you know, I always find this an interesting discussion, right?
Because. Whether it comes to financial advisors, you know, our insurance agent selling whole life products, which, you know, you know, I also don't like. And so, uh, if, if anyone's heard me speaking in this space, I'm not a fan. And so, you know, that said like, You know what I always tell people is like, they're not bad people, right?
Yeah. Like they've got bills to pay, you know, mouths to feed. But what I will say is that good people and bad systems do bad things, right? Correct. And so when, when they're in a system like that and they're in a situation where they do have a big house and they do have. Bills, and they do have kids going to college and they have things that they have to worry about.
You know, good people in bad situations do bad things. And, you know, that's, it's been studied you know, the most famous example being like the electric shock experiment, right. That they did to try to figure out like why would normal German citizens who were good people. Be complicit in genocide during World War ii.
Like, why would that happen? And so they asked the question, they did the study and, you know, put 'em in a room and they didn't realize it, but they were gonna be the person administering the shocks to, you know, a another study participant who wasn't really one, they were part of the study. And, and they found out, like, you know, going up the shock board from like mild, moderate, severe to like lethal shocks that normal people, if they got paid, like an equivalent of what is, you know, 20 bucks today would walk in and a large percentage of them would find out that if an authority figure standing behind them told them that they had to keep going.
That a large percentage of them would actually administer a lethal shock to another human being. Right. And so like when you're put in a situation like that where you're a decent person, you're a normal person, you're put into a bad environment, a bad situation with authority figures telling you you have to do certain things, it turns out humans will do that.
And so big time, you know, when you have these value conflicts and that, you know, the edicts are coming from on high from these big hospital administrative, Positions and the threat is your job, right? I mean, it's not that different, to be honest with you. And I'm not comparing it to World War ii, you know, Nazi genocide.
Like that's not what I'm doing here. But what I'm saying is when doctors or insurance agents or whoever are working in a system that's broken and demand certain things that go against their value system, there's something called ethical fading that will happen. You'll still maintain that you're a good person and you'll do bad things in that system.
And this is a psychological phenomenon that happens to humans. And so we know it exists. It's been studied, it's been shown. And you know, it, it's a, it's a problem. It really is. (Mid Roll)
Daniel Wrenne: Yeah, I can, verify that I saw it firsthand in both Different. Not really in all my experience in, in the industry. And it's a interesting thing, it's they never, people never really say they're doing bad things.
Like that's just not natural. No. But they'll do bad things and say that they're doing the right thing and
Dr. Jimmy Turner: well justify it. Cause they need, they need to sleep at night just like you and me. And, and so, and they, they legitimately believe they're doing what's best for people and they have a hard time stepping outside themselves and saying, huh,
Daniel Wrenne: But you're the average of your five best friends. Or another way of looking at it is your, The average of the people that you spend the most time with. So if you work all the time, for example, the people around you are influencing you heavily. In other words, the system has a lot of influence on you, especially if they're paying you know, your salary.
Like yeah, that's even, that's like added baggage into the equation. And so if there is a conflict there, that's gonna. Kind of start to rub off on you.
Dr. Jimmy Turner: Yeah. But I think the benefit is, and what you're getting at with your argument, right, is that if there are doctors that go into the entrepreneurial space while still being attached to medicine, I.
There are more and more of those doctors that do that. There are gonna be more and more doctors who spend time with those doctors, right? And then that's how the needle starts to move because you have this cadre of people who see, oh, that's possible that I can do that, and then I can make things change, right?
And as that group grows, there's this grassroots effort that then can, you know, hopefully, eventually put pressure on the system and change the system. You know, so that that power of five or the, the people you spend the most time with argument can be beneficial, but historically, Doctors haven't been doctors and entrepreneurs.
Right, right. Like, like this is a you know, a newer thing in the last, what, five, 10 years. You know, if, and I guess maybe if you exclude real estate, which is more traditional you know, I guess people have always been involved with that to some extent, but not for the same reasons and definitely not a lot of the other things that doctors have stepped into in the last 10 years.
Daniel Wrenne: Yeah. I mean, I think doctors can do whatever they. Set their mind to, if they believe that they, once they kind of decide they're gonna do something. A lot of it is mindset. That's my opinion, is that a lot of that is mindset. And if when you're super smart, like you have a pretty big leg up, like go hang out with some of the average entrepreneurs, like my buddies that are entrepreneurs, they're not the smartest guy.
I mean, we'll talk about it too, like they're not the smartest guys in the class. but they're like, Pretty courageous. Like they'll like take risks
Dr. Jimmy Turner: yeah. man, I've spent so much time coaching on this one topic. So like, the thing that prevents doctors from stepping into the space, like on the outset is fear.
They are afraid of failing, right? The, the amount of courage that it takes as a physician who has, I mean, let's, let's walk the, the classic road of a doctor, right? Going through undergrad, you know, getting great grades, gonna medical school, doing everything they're supposed to do, taking the exams. Passing them.
You know, like they have this very straight and narrow road with, you know, blinders on that they have to like, go through all these hoops and it's very guided. There's not really, like, as long as you put the work in and do what you're supposed to do, for those that make it like they have this story that I've always been successful.
And yeah, they've, they've probably had some hurdles. They've probably had some triumphs, some obstacles they had to overcome. But then when they get done with training, right, and now of a sudden there's not like a, Hey, this is the next step. Now they're like, well, what do I do? Right? Mm-hmm. And, and some of that is like, well, I could do this traditional thing that's set in front of me, or I could do this other thing that scares me to death, has the possibility of failing, but I know has the possibility of making me happier, but I'm not gonna do that because doctors don't fail.
And I'm not willing to risk failure to go pursue that. And so like that, like yeah, that fear, which is why, you know, on the Physician philosopher podcast, you know the tagline, start before you're ready. Start by starting, start now. It's because you just have to get going. Like that inertia, that activation energy that doctors have to overcome in order to take that leap is massive.
But when they do and they land on their two feet and they realize, oh, I am actually really smart, and oh, I actually can learn from failure. Like this isn't the end of my world if I fail. You know, they can be some of the most successful entrepreneurs, but that first step of getting started is so hard for so many doctors.
Daniel Wrenne: Yeah, fear is, I would agree. Fear is the most common, hurdle. If you peel back, back the layers on things and. Even if somebody might be saying like, I'm doing the right thing, I'm working in the system, I'm my job's. Okay. But I typically see, like the symptom I see a lot of times is like they're, cuz we get to talk about like aspirations and what's most important and goals and the future.
And I start to see people like lose a little bit of excitement in the future. They're just kind of like dull to the, I mean, they're like, eh, retire at 60, you know? I'm just doing the grind, like they lose. It's almost like they've lost the hope in the future a little bit and, it's either that or sometimes they're like hardcore fire.
Yeah. And those are two, like, to me, like big time. It used to be that I was just like, that's just some scenarios that come up. But like nowadays, I'm like, those are triggers to like, there's some underlying issues. There's some problems around that that are brewing I think a lot of times it's typically this.
Thing we're talking about like these Yeah. Conflicts with the system. And so my argument for those people, if I can get them to get to that point where they realize that, because that's a big thing, is awareness. You gotta realize that that's actually happening in yourself. Yeah. But like, if you can get to that point, then it's like, okay.
typically what we find is like, Because this question is like, well, why don't you just leave the job? Or why don't you just go do a different flavor of medicine or something like that, that eliminates some of these problems because I have seen people do that and it works really well, and those issues kind of fade.
It's like the hardcore fire guys are like, all of a sudden they find a good fit and they're like, eh, I could see myself retiring 60 bucks. Crazy. So
Dr. Jimmy Turner: this is so interesting, right? and I completely agree. I've seen the same two. Groups of people. and the goal is exactly what you just described, right?
I wanna be living a life that I like right now. Right? And, and so for me, like I've, I've found that balance. I do anesthesia two days a week, right? I, I co-found a startup the other three days of the week. And for me, like I love what I do, like I love my life. Now I've got balance. I get to coach my kids' soccer teams like mm-hmm.
You know, I, I figured out the scenario for me, but when I was full-time medicine, right? So I'm 0.75 in ft. Which is crazy math, but I am and so, you know, when I was full-time medicine man, I burned out hard. And then when I tried to go to entrepreneurship and, you know, burn the, the candle at both ends, to be honest with you, I burned out hard.
Mm-hmm. And so for me it was like, okay, how much of each of these things do I need to have the life that I want? But when I was on either end of the spectrum where I was like, oh, I'm just in the grind. I just gotta put the time in. I'm not gonna be able to enjoy my life fully until like I get to that number.
Like that's a miserable existence. And then when I went to the other side and I was like, you know what? I'm just gonna crush things and and be an entrepreneur and build this business on the side while I'm making full-time money as an anesthesiologist, you know, I'm gonna get to fire as quick as I can.
Ultimately, that ended up being an arrival fallacy. I was like, oh, when I get to that spot, things are gonna be better. I'm gonna be happier. And so, you know, and that doesn't happen. And, and if you, if you're on that journey and you're telling yourself that, you know, once I get to that number as quickly as I can, that's when I'm gonna be happy.
Mm-hmm. It's not true. You're gonna get there and you're gonna be so disappointed that you wasted all this time crushing yourself to get to that number faster. Yeah. And on the other side, you just stay stuck in a job where you're quote unquote, grinding it out to be happy someday. That's much further down the road.
And that's, you know, that's not a, a great existence either. Mm-hmm. And so it is that key of finding out like, How do I design this life in a way that allows me to enjoy my life right now? Where, you know what, like, I actually enjoy working. Like this idea of work-life balance, I think is pretty stupid. Like I just have balance, like I work as much as I want.
I, I am with my kids as much as I want. You know, I, I have balance and work is a part of that, right? It's, it's not like they're separate things. I share my work with my kids. I share, you know, like that entire piece together. But I, I, I will say that the key is, What you're getting at, which is, you know, life planning, it's intentionality.
It is not going through the motions. It is not crushing yourself hoping that this existence you're creating in five years from saving every single penny that you can is gonna be better. Right. That's not an intentional decision. You're just wishing away your current year so that you can hope to be finding that, you know, pot of the gold at the end of the rainbow in five.
Yeah. Uh, it doesn't, it doesn't exist. It's not there. You're not a leprechaun.
Daniel Wrenne: Yeah. I think all of us get to this point where you are like, just. Burned out or whatever you wanna call it, burned out or like fried or weighted down, or you're like unhappy, dull, or you've lost the flare or that kind of thing.
Dr. Jimmy Turner: You've lost that love and feeling. Is that what you're trying to say? That's right.
Daniel Wrenne: You've lost No, I'm not gonna do that. and you know, I think, so another, we were talking about this before too. Another, show that you did was on the importance of rest, and I think that's critical. Like also to bring up in this whole, especially when.
You're getting weighed down and you know, you're feeling that, burnout Yeah. Sort of thing. And so maybe we could talk about that a little bit. that show you did, and I, the book you were talking about on that show was, what was it? The, the, the Ruthless Elimination of Hurry. Yeah. Which is a great book.
I love it, first of all. Yeah. But you kind of honed in on this particular area of rest and, talked about a Bible verse. one of the things that Jesus said, and I'm gonna like paraphrase it in like my like sort of wording because Sure. I'm not a, Bible scholar by any means, but, basically the verse is like, come to me all that are.
We'll say, burned out, come to me. All that are burned out and I'm, I'll give you rest. Hit your wagon to me. I'm gentle and humble and you will find rest for your souls. My way is easy and my burden is light. So I think if you, well, I mean this is getting into beliefs and that's a big topic in itself, but like I know some, some of you guys listening, Are Christians.
and if you are a Christian like you, this is a big deal. Like what Jesus said and what he's saying is like, if you're burdened, like what's the problem? Like you got your hit wagon hitched to some the wrong thing normally. because what I do when I'm burdened my typical response, I'm like, ah, things getting tough.
Usually what I do, I'm like, I'm gonna figure it out. I'm gonna tighten my bootstraps, I'm gonna work harder, or I'm gonna like, it's all so it's a bunch of eyes. Yep. Which is pride. Normally, like the pride B bubbles up at me and I'm like, I'm gonna knock this thing outta the park. I'm gonna work through it and that, and then this.
It's a cycle and eventually I screw it up again and then, but it's hard to kind of follow this. Model. Right? I mean, that's, that's not easy.
Dr. Jimmy Turner: Yeah. Yeah. No, I, I agree. And, and it's, you know what I, what I'll say, Daniel, and what I kinda always, you know, mention when I have like, have this conversation is like this idea of rest.
Like, you know, I'm a believer, I'm Christian, my, you know, that's my, my family and I go to church and very much are believers. But this idea of rest is actually prevalent. So I'm a philosophy major. I love thinking about other world religions and having conversations with people that have very different belief systems than me.
And considering those ideas, like, you know, I've, I've got a, you know, very open mind and love having conversations with people that, that are atheist or are, you know, Buddhist or Jewish or Muslim, you know, like, and so, This idea of rest is, you know, in the Judeo-Christian faith, it's in the Buddhist faith, it's in, you know, the Muslim faith.
It is in humanism. I mean, this thing's been studied just in psychological literature outside of religion, and it turns out that rest is a really good thing for us. Unfortunately. It's also something that's really hard. And the reason why is because, you know, there are people out there and I'll say, and, and.
Interestingly, you know, I kind of forgot, this is one of the topics we're gonna talk about today. I literally still to this day have this thing taped up in my bed or in my, uh, my closet. That's like the five rules to a successful day. And, and that, those rules came from a time in my life where I was crushing myself as an entrepreneur.
I was still practicing medicine, and so I had to give myself permission to rest. Mm-hmm. And so those five rules were basically, you know, I need to do something to be active, you know, exercise. I need to spend time with my kids. I need to do something to make Kristen my wife happy. And then like one of my rules was literally do something just to enjoy it for the sake of enjoying it.
Like I had to remind myself that that was an okay thing to do and that still exists in my closet upstairs from a couple of years ago. and, and the reason why is because, you know, there's always more to do. Like the to-do list is never ending. And so for me, I had a really hard time separating like, okay, when is rest okay?
Like, when is rest? You know, when do I, when do I deserve rest? And it turns out that there's this distinction right between being lazy and rest. And for humans, for whatever reason, like we have to put work in and then we feel like we deserve rest. But if we do the same exact activities, but we haven't, Quote unquote worked.
Many of us will think, oh, that's lazy. I should be working. And then we basically just make ourselves feel shameful. Yeah. You know, like, ah, like, I'm so ashamed I should be doing work right now, but I'm, I'm playing pickleball, you know, or, or whatever, you know,
Daniel Wrenne: whatever happens, you can't even like get into the moment because you're so much on that side.
Dr. Jimmy Turner: Yeah. Yeah. And so, so that's the thing, right? And so, you know, in, in that verse, you know, another translation of it basically talks about taking not the Daniel translation Yeah. Not the Daniel translation, you know, but one of the, one of the key phrases in there is, is to take my yoke upon you. And for those that don't know what a yoke is, like that's the thing like you put around like, you know, an oxes neck to help them plow, right?
So a yoke was a, a divisive work, right? So like he's actually calling you to like, Hey, put this thing that's required for work on your shoulders. And you're like, hold on, I, we just talked about me being like heavy laden and burdened and weary, and you're telling me to put this thing on that I work with.
And what he's trying to help you realize is like, actually not all work has to be heavy. There's a way to make this light and easy and, and part of the solution is not, not doing it on your own. Right? But at the same time, like this idea of rest. Anybody that's an entrepreneur that is being honest. Will tell you that the moments of inspiration when they're like, oh, that's the next thing I need to do with my business, or, oh, that's the next thing I need to do with my career, or, oh yeah, this one idea would be so great.
Dude, you are riding a bike, you're playing pickleball. You're listening always while you're driving in the car, you are on vacation on a beach in Kaba, right? Like you are not crushing your soul 70 hours a week at the hospital when you're coming up with these great ideas. That's not when that happens typically, right?
It happens when your conscious mind has a chance to take a break and you are resting, right? That you can not only get rejuvenated, but figure out what's my path forward. Mm-hmm. And so, you know, rest is, is good for so many things. And the last of a, a lack of rest is toxic. Yeah. It's completely toxic. But in the culture of hard work and hustle, which is what's been preached for a while now, people feel like, oh, but if I rest.
Like, you know, that's not good. It's like, actually it's the opposite,
Daniel Wrenne: I think if you have no rest. So look at your schedule, everybody, you look at your schedule. I'll look, I mean, when I look at my schedule, I can kind of, to me that's the best way to decide how much rest do I actually have. and so I. When you have no rest, the problem with that is I think that you can't change like you're paralyzed when you have no rest.
Cause you're in the grind. Like, you're just on autopilot. There's no time to reflect. No. And you can't. You just can't. So I work, you know, I, I have had this conversation with a lot of physicians in the, that are so committed and, you know, paralyzed by work in part because of this whole resting, like, they don't have a second to like, think.
because when they get done, they're like, ah, I gotta put the kids to bed, and then I gotta eat dinner, and then I gotta, you know, spend some time with my wife in the, but this is like in a five minute window when they're already under on their sleep that they need to have and they haven't worked out.
And so they're like torn in a million different directions. So you can't improve, I don't think, unless you have this built in. Rest into your calendar. Yep. And your calendar's a great indicator. It's like, a lot of, cuz you'll be like, oh, do you get enough rest? Or whatever, because people are always like, I'm, I'm busy.
I mean, you know, every, I say it myself, I'm like, what's, what's been going on? Been busy, you know? But, I think people would also say, well, if somebody pushed me and they're like, Daniel, you get enough rest, I'd be like, yeah, yeah, yeah, sure. I get enough rest too. It's all good. But people just say things. A lot of times the true test is like, show me your calendar and we'll see if you get.
Enough rest or look at your calendar yourself and we'll see if you're earmarking enough rest and that, that's where you can make big progress. Like you said with entrepreneurs, like that's where the light bulb goes off. Yeah. A lot of times in the strangest it's, for me, it's like in the shower, I'm like staying there doing nothing.
Yeah.
Dr. Jimmy Turner: Yeah. No, I mean, that's exactly right. And, and you know, the irony of that show that you're alluding to is when looking back at when it was when it was published, this was right before I went like on a. I mean, you can call it sabbatical. Like I basically stopped podcasting for three months to take a break and to write a book.
And but I got to write the book on my schedule and when I wanted to, and, and trust me when I say writing books like that requires rest. Like you, you're just not gonna come up with ideas that you wanna talk about without like having time to rest. and so, you know, it was that was actually a really tough time for me.
Like I was at my wit's end burning out bad again for the second time. and that rest, like, I got to the point where I was like, I, I have to take this. Like, I, I cannot keep this stressful grind. Going anymore. You know, and so that, that was a, a moment in my life where I had to be honest and take that step back and, and we all get there.
You know, like, I can't say all of us, but a lot of the doctors that I talk to get there, right? And they're like, okay, I don't know what needs to change, but something has to change. Like, this is not something I can continue doing. And, and in order to go through that process of thinking through like, okay, what is that next step?
You have to be able to step back. Mm-hmm. Right. You have to have time for rest, whether it's in the shower or you take a week of vacation. Right. Or, you know, you go on a hike and leave your cell phone in the car. Right. Like mm-hmm. You have to have time to sort
Daniel Wrenne: through these things. Yeah. The other part about that, that we hit on a little bit, but I I wanted to mention too is like the hitch, your wagon part or the, you know, the yoking part, like the question is like, what do you hitch to now?
Like everybody's. Got their wagon hitch to something that's pulling them. And so maybe it's like the system, like the healthcare system is, you got, you're all in on that. Like that's your thing or you know, whatever. Your smartphone can be part of that. I mean, like that, you, you got your wagon hitch to your smartphone cuz like, oh yeah, that's, I'm, I'm bad about that one ever.
Yeah, I am too. It's cuz it's, you just can't, it's designed scientifically to like, suck in your attention. Yep. but like, awareness of like, What you have your wagon hitch to and saying, so if you're a Christian, you're like, no, no, no, no. I gotta hitch my wagon to Jesus as the example and like follow that model.
Mm-hmm. Instead of this model of like hitching my wagon to the world or the culture or whatever it is. Just that awareness though of what you're, cuz everybody's goes back to the influence thing. Like we're all kind of like feeling this pull towards cultural influence and following what we're.
Connected to and for? For, for better or for
Dr. Jimmy Turner: worse. Yeah. So in hospitals, the way that I explain this to people, Who haven't had this experience yet, cuz I had this two or three years into my career. And honestly, it's what caused my massive pivot into entrepreneurship like really going in with both feet.
And, you know, committing to that is you're gonna have an experience at some point where, you know, I think Vagabond md, he wrote a, he wrote a blog post an anonymous post on, on my site years ago now. But he basically says like, the hospital will not love you back. Like you can pour your blood, sweat, tears, time, all of it into the hospital, into medicine.
And it will not love you back. And if you haven't had that experience yet, where like you've done everything that you can, you've checked every box that you could, you've worked as hard as you possibly can, and like your career has something happen or doesn't have something happen that you, you were working toward that's gonna happen.
And, and I remind people and pe and some people like really resonate with this and some people get pissed off by it. But to me this is a fact, which is that, you know, if you died tomorrow, that hospital where you work would replace you the next day. Your parents, your kids, your spouse cannot do that. Yep.
Right? So when you hit your wagon to the field of medicine and it becomes more than just a job or a profession, it becomes your identity that. Is when you have a problem, right? That is when you find out, when medicine divorces you in some way that you're like, wow, I was way too in deep on this. Like I was totally sucked into the matrix.
I should have taken the other pill, right? I should have gotten out of this cer like sooner, right? And so when you hit your wagon, you have to hit your wagon to things that you know are your identity, right? And so if you're, you know, religious, that's gonna be, you know, part of your identity. If you're married, hopefully that's part of your identity.
If you have kids, You know, if you don't have any of those things and, and you're, you know, you identify in some other way, shape, or form, like your identity has to exist outside of medicine. And unfortunately for a lot of doctors, like being a doctor is who they are. And man, when that's when that ship starts going down, they're going down with it and not realizing that, like, that sacrifice, like they, they would replace you tomorrow.
So that's not the best thing to probably hit your wagon too, right? You're build, you're building your, your castle on sand in
Daniel Wrenne: that situation. Correct? Yes. Not a lot of love there and I mean, but that is, is how it is. It just is what it is and it's good. Good to know that and reinforce that. Those are wise words.
I think that's a good spot to. Ended on, and, always a good conversation. We covered a lot of different topics, which is always fun for me. Yeah, Daniel, I always enjoy this. It's, it's been, it's been fun. I wanted to talk about your new, business idea, but I'm cut off on time, so maybe we can circle back at some point when you got this.
new startup going and yeah. And we will start to break that down a little bit. Yeah. Cuz it sounds exciting. So, we'll, I'll, I'll tease that so in the future we'll circle back and talk about that episode. That, that
Dr. Jimmy Turner: sounds great. I, I, I would, I would love to talk about 10 in the future and, and look forward to hanging out on the show show in the future some other time.
Awesome,
Daniel Wrenne: Jimmy. I appreciate it, bud.
Dr. Jimmy Turner: All right, thanks Daniel.
